Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Josef Schmalz


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. All of the arguments for keeping are variations on, "But, it's on de", which isn't a valid argument. -- RoySmith (talk) 01:14, 12 February 2018 (UTC)


 * PS, also see the related WP:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Josef Schmalz -- RoySmith (talk) 02:02, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Josef Schmalz

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

The IP user that created this article has copied and pasted the draft of the same name into mainspace despite it having been repeatedly declined due to insufficient evidence of notability, thereby purposefully bypassing the AfC process. They assert that Schmalz is notable because there's an article about him in the German wikipedia, and because that German article was speedily kept when it was nominated for deletion. However based on EN criteria, Schmalz fails WP:GNG and WP:COMPOSER and could only meet the "released two albums on a mainstream label" criteria of WP:MUSICBIO (Metronome Records) though I think that is aimed at singers/musicians rather than conductors/composers.

Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 14:33, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. note: this may seem strange, since I appear to have created the article, but all I did was copy it from the Talk to Article space (with some misgivings on notability) on the grounds that it looked like a newbie mistake. I should have tagged it, though. Kleuske (talk) 16:41, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * no worries. You weren't to know there was a copy of it in draft space. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 18:25, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I should have checked. Sorry. Kleuske (talk) 19:51, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually the There is a draft for this article template should have been visible at the top of edit window; for an example of how it looks try open . Strictly speaking, we should not cut-and-paste from one page to another without attribution, see WP:CUTPASTE. If it is of any consolation, geachte Kleuske, yours truly failed to tag the talk page correctly with Db-talk the second time it was created. Best, Sam Sailor 12:56, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. MT TrainDiscuss 16:55, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. MT TrainDiscuss 16:55, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. MT TrainDiscuss 16:55, 27 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I have no opinion on the subject's notability, but the integrity of the AfD process requires deletion of its circumvention. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:56, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:DEL8, Curb Safe Charmer's analysis is correct, subject does not yet meet the inclusion criteria, including failing for now at least the basic notability guideline for people. A few words as a follow up to nom's remarks: several IPs, probably the same user on a dynamic connection, have pushed for Draft:Josef Schmalz to be accepted, including filing a request at Requested moves/Technical requests. At the same time they have now copied the draft three times onto Talk:Josef Schmalz. Unregistered users can not create pages in namespace 0 (main space), they can however start pages in namespace 1 (talk space). Several of us failed to take the right action in this case: tag the talk page with Db-talk. Showing good faith is fine, but we should be alert to this method being a potential backdoor to main space. Sam Sailor 12:56, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep Fully translation of german accepted version https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Schmalz_(Musiker) with notability and passed deletion discussion: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:L%C3%B6schkandidaten/8._Mai_2017#Josef_Schmalz_(Musiker)_(LAE) (LAE = decision: No deletion) --188.194.156.154 (talk) 16:36, 30 January 2018 (UTC) — has only contributed to the article(s) under discussion for deletion and AFD.
 * Has little to no influence of the outcome of the AFD discussion here on English Wikipedia. I have asked IP not to resubmit Draft:Josef Schmalz unless better sources are presented. Sam Sailor 16:51, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment with a tentative Keep based on my limited understanding of the en notability criteria. First some general comments on the notability criteria. Its normally assumed the De notability criteria are stricter as the criteria here. But in this case this might not be the case. One part that the German notability tries to focus on is time surviving notability compared to short term news tickers. I don't see anything like this on the notability page here. Nevertheless you are talking here about somebody who did the notable initial publication in the late 70s and the 80s and it is still played and reproduced as of today (with the last CD in the article the dedicated CD of his work in 2012). Together with the implicit assumption that his songs have been played live in all this 30, now nearly 40 years. This kind of music and the brass bands are still highly present in Germany. Maybe not as present as in the past, but still present. On top of this there has been a lot of misconception and misunderstanding in the draft discussion. In particular on the references. As already said his main work is from before the internet and from before the almighty, complete databanks. But there is still on the mentioned work in all cases plausible reverence, and in most of them even an independent reverence. The CD from 2012 was published in his honor and clearly states that it is about his compositions. The description and the links might be from a private Homage, but it is independent in the dnb http://d-nb.info/1031951865 and other places. The name of (some) of his songs are therefore known, so in the old LP's from the 80's his work can therefore be identified even if discogs only knows the name of the songs without mentioning the name Schmalz. On top in some cases the name might not be in the data, but can be seen on the pictures of the LP in discogs. Something that hasn't been mentioned before (and I don't know if it matters) is the fact that the sheet music of his works have been published by notable publishers. (And I’m not putting it in the article. That’s wikipadia nonsense to put stuff into an article just to prove notability because its there, because in context of the article and the reader (so real life) it doesn’t matter.)  --Fano (talk) 12:40, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
 * keep -- Wikipedia is world wide and if this person is worth mentioning in another Wikipedia Language then: keep it as mentioned through Template:Translated page -- MeBaLa (talk) 15:13, 31 January 2018 (UTC) — has only contributed to the article(s) under discussion for deletion and AFD.
 * as a new editor who has only contributed to this article you may not be familiar with the WP:OTHERLANGS section of 'Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions'. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 17:47, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Why do you not read what Fano writes, and read it again, and read again again and again until you understand the relevance of this person also in en:WP? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Josef_Schmalz&diff=823301388&oldid=823162835
 * Are you alive since 1960 or not and still in the media present?
 * MeBaLa (talk) 13:21, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It is clear that you feel strongly about the subject. In deletion discussions, we don't each get a vote - whether the article is kept or deleted is based on the strengths of the arguments put forward, based on the guidelines and policies that Wikipedia is based on. Try to put forward your own answer to how Schmalz meets the WP:COMPOSER criteria. Please see also Help, my article got nominated for deletion! for useful advice on how to participate here. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 18:02, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * This dead person meets the following criterias:
 * 1.Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition.
 * 3.Has had a work used as the basis for a later composition by a songwriter, composer or lyricist who meets the above criteria.
 * 5.Has been listed as a major influence or teacher of a composer, songwriter or lyricist that meets the above criteria.
 * 6.Appears at reasonable length in standard reference books on his or her genre of music.
 * Find you the sources and clear it. Because to find something after WW2 after deportation of Romania is hard. And for everything after 1970 you have evidence in several LPs, CDs, compilations, TV shows, and the booklets!!! --MeBaLa (talk) 17:23, 2 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment 2: I'm still puzzled that a composer, who has composed multiple works that have been puplished by multiple notable artists under notable lables should not be notable himselve. (Independent from the aditional live plays.)--Fano (talk) 13:14, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I suggest that comments from additional users might be helpful here.
 * See also https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Josef_Schmalz&diff=823670077&oldid=823181458 out of http://www.zentrum.hu/wp-content/uploads/Forum-03-M%C3%84RZ-2014.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.194.158.8 (talk) 17:48, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete The subject does not appear to meet our guidelines for establishing WP:N. I am also singularly unimpressed with the various pro-Keep comments which seem to either ignore our guidelines or suggest that being accepted on the German Wikipedia should be sufficient. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:21, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  DGG ( talk ) 02:16, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete- Nice job, I've never seen anyone put together a table to analyze the sources in an article before. The nomination is spot on, there is not enough to establish notability. And whatever happens on German Wikipedia is irrelevant here.--Rusf10 (talk) 04:20, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Check out Source assess. Sam Sailor 11:00, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom, although more for the notability reasons than those of the article's chequered creation history. I'm certainly happy to review this opinion if arguments are made in line with the guidelines (and with proof) in favour of keeping the article. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 05:16, 4 February 2018 (UTC)


 * „Where possible, composers or lyricists with insufficient verifiable material to warrant a reasonably detailed article should be merged into the article about their work. When a composer or lyricist is known for multiple works, such a merger may not be possible.“


 * Though we create the article about the notable brass band Original Donauschwaben! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.194.158.8 (talk) 09:18, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
 * see Draft:Original Donauschwaben --188.194.158.8 (talk) 09:41, 4 February 2018 (UTC) — has only contributed to the article(s) under discussion for deletion and AFD.


 * Are you kidding:


 * Submission declined on 4 February 2018 by Heliosxeros (talk).
 * The content of this submission includes material that does not meet Wikipedia's minimum standard for inline citations. Please cite your sources using footnotes. For instructions on how to do this, please see Referencing for beginners. Thank you.


 * For Draft:Original Donauschwaben???????????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.194.158.8 (talk) 10:01, 4 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment: The IP editor has now created Draft:Original Donauschwaben. It was declined by . The IP editor has reacted by . Charming. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 10:13, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I have cleaned up Draft:Original Donauschwaben, it contained an unattributed copy-paste of Josef Schmalz, and I have declined the draft. Sam Sailor 11:00, 4 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment:
 * ??? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Original_Donauschwaben&diff=823943965&oldid=823939446


 * Why is Josef Schmalz removed from the article?!


 * You want delete Josef Schmalz and do not accept Draft:Josef Schmalz and then with repect of the sentences in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(music)#Criteria_for_composers_and_lyricists do not want him in this article?


 * Where possible, composers or lyricists with insufficient verifiable material to warrant a reasonably DETAILED article should be MERGED into the article about their work. When a composer or lyricist is known for multiple works, such a merger may not be possible.«


 * --188.194.158.8 (talk) 13:23, 4 February 2018 (UTC)


 * IP user (by the way, why don't you create a username so we know what to call you?) That applies where there's insufficient information available about the person who composed the music and instead the content about the composer is added to an article about their compositions. Per the guideline that you quoted, if a composer like Schmalz is known for multiple works, that isn't going to work. What you are proposing is to include information about a conductor into an article about the band that he conducted. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 14:54, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Why should the IP?


 * Good work with the table analysing the references. The fact that an article exists in the German Wiki doesnt mean that the article has met the inclusion criteria in the English encyclopedia. I am not familair with the German wiki, but from my limited experience with the english wiki, notability has not been established. No apparent reason or significance to the article. Moreover, bypassing AfC is a sly trick and wouldn't this be gaming the system, Abuse of process? EROS message 14:28, 4 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Bad analysed table: no mention when he is on several photos is a lie! --89.204.135.54 (talk) 13:36, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Being in a photo doesn't constitute in depth, independent coverage. It is a primary source so doesn't contribute towards notability. See WP:BASIC. Nobody is disputing his role in the band. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 19:49, 9 February 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.