Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joseph Burton Lumpkin


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. There is a clear consensus of established editors here that this article does not meet the notability guideline. The sources provided have been considered and there is agreement that they are unreliable/insufficient to establish notability. Davewild (talk) 09:46, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Joseph Burton Lumpkin

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Everything in the article seems true, but I'm having a very hard time finding independent sources. All books seem to be self published and his degree looks to be from an unaccredited school that might be a degree mill. Due to the lack of independent sources, I don't think the subject meets WP:N or WP:BIO but I'd be happy to be proven wrong... Hobit (talk) 07:25, 1 January 2011 (UTC) Ladies and Gents, this discussion was brought to my attention and I wish to weigh in. As the owner of Fifth Estate, I grant permission of use and thus there are no copyright issues. Fifth Estate has published more than one hundred books, which are distributed world wide. At the writing of the note there are no less than 5 books in the top listings of their categories according to Amazon.com. The question then is, at what point does a small publishing company make the leap from self-publishing to main stream? Fifth Estate serves several hand picked authors, all of which are considered experts in their fields. To address the last issue, I have to say that if my degree was from a diploma mill I would not have the knowledge to produce books, which have been given good and positive reviews. Sadly, Battlefield Baptist was not a diploma mill, but it not longer exists. It was a Christian school, which attempted to expand to quickly and failed. If I can provide further information I would be happy to do so. Please contact me via our website. Thank you for your time. Joseph Lumpkin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.168.158.164 (talk) 20:20, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete It looks to me like this article is a copyright violation of material on the copyrighted website of Fifth Estate Publishing. The subject is CEO of that company.  Even if an acceptable free license was provided, I have been unable to find any independent, reliable sources needed to establish notability. Cullen328 (talk) 08:23, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:20, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:20, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:21, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I would expect a higher level of writing skill from someone holding a doctorate. Yopienso (talk) 17:28, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * What we are looking for are sources that are reliable and independent of the subject. Things like articles or radio shows or whatever that discuss the subject (or perhaps his works) but don't have a vested interest in the subject.  So a review in Christianity Today of a book or the author would help a lot.  So would reporting done on the martial arts stuff.  I couldn't find anything out there, but I'm sure someone closer to the subject may have a better idea about where to look.  As far as copyright stuff goes, if this article gets kept, we'll need you to formally give permission in a confirmable way, but that can probably wait for now. Hobit (talk) 22:50, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete. Fails WP:AUTHOR, WP:BK, and WP:BIO. Qworty (talk) 01:52, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete. The only cited source is a web page that cites this wikipedia article. Dicklyon (talk) 02:38, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Certainly. I understand. Please look to LA Talk Radio, Max and Friends (show name) for the last 3 interviews. Also look to "Rain Making Time with Kim Greenhouse - LA radio host- for a series of interviews. I have also had interviews in the UK. These are all on the website http://www.fifthestatepub.com
 * http://www.latalkradio.com/Max.php (Look toward the bottom of the page for downloadable archives of the shows.)
 * http://itsrainmakingtime.com/?s=Joseph+Lumpkin
 * An interview in the U.K. is located at http://www.bbsradio.com/host/connectingthelight/archives/connecting_the_light_archive.php?begin=12

Book reviews were done by Diglot, a scholarly review. http://diglot.wordpress.com/2010/06/14/review-the-books-of-enoch-joseph-lumpkin/
 * Also see other reviews at http://diglot.wordpress.com/?s=Joseph+Lumpkin
 * Several martial arts articles, both written and video, may be found at
 * http://www.gmaf.org/gmaf_newsletters.html
 * http://www.akayamaryu.com/wintercamp2011.html
 * http://christianmartialartist.net/?page_id=2045
 * http://www.isamartialarts.net/News.html
 * Several years ago Taekwondo Times did 3 articles on Shinsei Hapkido, however, I could not find them listed. If you need them I can copy and send.
 * Lastly, if you would please search Wikipedia you will find at least three citations in your own articles.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Apostle
 * http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Yagy%C5%AB_Munenori
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ari89/Sandbox
 * http://www.maa-i.com/who/vv/JOSEPH_LUMPKIN_/hauptteil_joseph_lumpkin_.html
 * And several more if you need them.
 * http://www.tigersociety.com/ShinseiHapkido.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.168.158.164 (talk) 06:26, 3 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment -- The author appears to have a significant body of work, largely on apocryphal literature. The problem is that Biographies of living persons are required to be fully referenced, and this is not.  The list of publications should present no problem as they presumably appear in library catalogues.  What I have no idea about is their merit.  I suspect that the article is capable of rescue.  The COPY-VIO issue has presumably been dealt with, assuming that the release is in fact by the person claiming to release it.  This needs to be referred to the appropriate WP workgroup.  References to other WP articles are not really adequate citations, but some of the others may be.  Neutral for now.  Peterkingiron (talk) 12:15, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. If any other release documentation or information is needed, please contact me at my personal email address. josephlumpkin@hotmail.com

Major book sellers have catalogs posted as follows: Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_adv_b/?search-alias=stripbooks&unfiltered=1&field-keywords=&field-author=&field-title=&field-isbn=&field-publisher=Fifth+Estate&node=&field-p_n_condition-type=&field-feature_browse-bin=&field-binding_browse-bin=&field-subject=&field-language=&field-dateop=&field-datemod=&field-dateyear=&sort=relevanceexprank&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=17&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=10

Barnes and Noble http://productsearch.barnesandnoble.com/search/results.aspx?store=book&TTL=&ATH=Joseph+Lumpkin&WRD=&PRC=&FMT=&AGE=&USRI=Joseph+Lumpkin&CAT=&PN=Fifth+Estate

Books-A-Million http://www.booksamillion.com/search?id=4941507784117&query=Joseph+Lumkin&where=book_author&search.x=0&search.y=0

Other chains also carry our full catalog in Canada, India, South Africa, and other countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.168.158.164 (talk) 14:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Here is yet another Wiki link referencing the author and one of his books. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher_(angel)


 * Delete. Lumpkin's participation on this page confirms it is primarily a self-promotional piece. Yopienso (talk) 23:46, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Which isn't a reason to delete. I don't find that any of those sources meet our requirement for a WP:RS (though 3 articles on in the TKD Times might if they discuss Mr. Lumpkin in any detail), his involvement isn't really a problem as long as he discloses the WP:COI...Hobit (talk) 02:30, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I misunderstand these guidelines: WP:COI, WP:NOTE. Yopienso (talk) 04:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps so. WP:NOTE certainly applies here and it's why I'm sticking with my deletion nomination.  But WP:COI/Autobio indicates that one should "avoid, or exercise great caution" deletion debates on one's self.  Given that he has only provided sources, I'm not seeing any kind of a problem, and certainly not a reason to delete the article.  Now if he _wrote_ this article, and he may well have, then we have a problem.  But I've not seen evidence of that yet. Hobit (talk) 14:11, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

There is no reason to believe me, beyond the first premise of WP, which is to assume good faith, but I did not author the article. If I had, the sources I am providing you now would have been included and we would likely not be involved in this subjective character trial. I have in no way attempted to influence the outcome other than to provide sources, which was the request stated in the banner of the article in question. Fulfilling the last request for information is where my involvement will cease now. Regarding the request for the specific articles in Tae Kwondo Times, I found only two of the three articles, which are May, 2003 and June, 2003. The first article states that a group representing Shinsei Hapkido had qualified to compete as part of the U.S. National Martial Arts Team in the World Cup event held in Mexico. The June Article states that the Shinsei Hapkido Team brought back multiple championships. These articles did not in any way dwell on me, only my students. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.168.158.164 (talk) 15:53, 5 January 2011 (UTC) — 209.168.158.164 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Delete. Can't see notability here. Xxanthippe (talk) 11:55, 7 January 2011 (UTC).
 * Delete Gratitude to Mr. Lumpkin for attempting to provide sources, but none of them rise to the level of Independent Reliable Sources as required to establish notability. --MelanieN (talk) 16:57, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note to closing administrator: if the result is "Delete", the redirect page Joseph B. Lumpkin should also be deleted, and the current dab page Joseph Lumpkin should be converted back into a redirect to Joseph Henry Lumpkin. --MelanieN (talk) 17:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep There seems to be a certain amount of controversy about the legitimacy of Mr. Lumpkin, his books and martial art background.  Mr. Lumpkin is a Christian Martial Artist and Author.  I have personally attended Mr. Lumpkin's martial art seminars held across the country (Missouri, Ohio, West Virginia, North Carolina and Alabama), and have used both books and martial art videos authored and produced by Mr. Lumpkin as a martial art teacher myself.  Under the realization that my personal attestation carries little weight, I would also like to point out Mr. Lumpkin is a Karate for Christ International Hall of Fame Inductee.  This aware is sited at their website http://www.karateforchrist.com/HallofFame.html.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rmilliken (talk • contribs) 06:45, 8 January 2011 (UTC)  — Rmilliken (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.