Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joseph Sanchez


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result, even disregarding the dual keep comment made by Alan Islas, was keep. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 02:23, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Joseph Sanchez

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Subject is non-notable. As with various other articles created by the original author, the few sources used are primary sources and the article, while detailed, fails to establish actual notability of the subject. It's almost entirely original research.  B.Rossow ·  talk  01:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  B.Rossow  ·  talk  01:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions.  B.Rossow  ·  talk  01:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Colorado-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 01:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Mexico-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 01:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment there is a tiny bit of coverage out there, but most of it is not in-depth. A very deep search might turn up more. The main problem here is that, assuming those sources were found, his very weak notablity would at most sustain a very short article-- not the gigantic indulgent biography that we have here.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 04:27, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment He is a well known artist, curator and Native American activist in the American Southwest. In collection of the Hood Museum . Unfortunately most of the museums in the Southwest do not have searchable online collection. I will keep looking. Netherzone (talk) 12:56, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment COPYVIO from his bio page is the bigger problem. I just flagged it. I found many passing references in a database search. He was a member of the Indian Group of Seven so I think he has notability, but it has to be a TNT bc of the COPYVIO. --Theredproject (talk) 19:59, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Amanda  (aka DQ) 20:10, 21 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment It's pretty simple: Joe Sanchez is an important artist in both Canada and in the US.  He was also a Curator, then Director of the Indian American Institute of Arts in Santa Fe and has since retired.  He is one of only two living members of the "Indian Group of Seven". His works have been shown in many public institutions and shows worldwide.  Racist colonialists have been trying to erase First Nations people for hundreds of years, so attempts to erase his page come as no surprise.  The truth is, people (and especially First Nations people) want to know his story, and will want to know his story years from now.  Why don't we do our research before considering deleting the page of an important cultural figure?  If we don't like the quality of the writing, why don't we improve it?  He is still alive, why don't we interview him or fact check with him before it's too late?

Some easily found reading for those interested:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/book-on-indian-group-of-seven-show-wins-3-awards-1.3050184

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/professional-native-indian-artists-inc

https://lakelandconnect.net/tag/indian-group-of-seven/

https://www.albertanativenews.com/group-of-seven-catalogue-offers-readers-beauty-knowledge-insight-and-more/

https://windspeaker.com/news/windspeaker-news/indian-group-of-seven-artists-will-help-launch-permanent-exhibition

https://iaia.edu/

https://orecartgbp.weebly.com/indian-group-of-seven.html

[User:Misterlobat|Misterlobat]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Misterlobat (talk • contribs) 01:00, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Please explain: what exactly is the problem with Primary Research? Last time I checked, primary sources were the best ones - no? [User:Misterlobat|Misterlobat]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Misterlobat (talk • contribs) 01:13, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment
 * Delete per WP:TNT. In 2007, somebody could rationally argue that primary sources are better than secondary sources for an encyclopedia, but in 2020, everybody knows we do not publish original research and we are not a free web host or place to publish research, and that as a charity Incorporated in the US, strictly enforce United States Copyright law. Substantively, one could argue this is a notable artist - he's exhibited om New York City and Santa Fe. But this is a mess. Having been around for over eight years, knows better. Bearian (talk) 00:54, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep Given that the Indian Group of Seven appears to be (I'm not an expert in this area) a notable group of Indigenous painters, and that all the other founding members also have articles to their names, I think that Joseph Sanchez would also merit his own, especially since there is independent coverage about him. Not trying be funny or anything, but it is the Indian Group of Seven, not six. However, I agree that the potential issues with original research and copyright infringement have to be fixed. Alan Islas (talk) 19:39, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 23:37, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge to Indian Group of Seven due to the lack of extensive coverage on Sanchez specifically. His career does seem to warrant mention in the larger topic, though. 67.243.20.177 (talk) 23:07, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge as suggested by the IP. Arguably, he passes WP:PROF as curator of a notable museum, to which I've visited. Bearian (talk) 17:12, 1 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep Let me start by saying that I am an expert in Canadian First Nations art - this is my major area of study and interest. A bit of background: The Indian Group of Seven are Canadian national icons, and important groundbreaking artists - all seven of them - in fact there was an eighth member by the name of Bill Reid who is a huge figure in Canadian art and very important as well, but never officially showed with the group so is excluded from the so called "Indian Group of Seven" lexicon.  I would encourage those not schooled in this area to read "7: Professional Native Indian Artists Inc. Group of Seven: JANVIER RAY MORRISSEAU ODJIG SANCHEZ BEARDY COBINESS" (a show catalog/book that won several awards) and all will become clear (notice the 7 at the beginning of the title). It is not up to Wikipedia authors who are not experts in this field to decide which artists from the group are important, and which are not - as an expert in this area I will thus assert, they are all important.  Period. Other experts in this area, should one choose to seek them out whilst performing some primary research, would agree.  A bit of history on this article:  For the edification of Bearian and other interested parties, I (Misterlobat) started the page in 2009, which was originally a pretty simple, basic, matter of fact entry where one was desperately lacking - after that I pretty much left it to others to work on (please see article history for reference).  In or around November 2016, a few massive edits were made by a "josephmsanchez" who now appears to be a defunct user.  For all I know it was Joseph Sanchez himself, and based on the amount of detail, it may well have been - who knows - or possibly someone following the huge shows around that time.  If any of the text was "lifted" from a non-referenced source, it certainly was not by me. If the article is a "mess" as asserted by Bearian (which in fact it may very well be by Wikipedia standards), then, those who know best how to clean it up, probably should since I believe (as do others) it is an important article about an important cultural figure in Canadian, US, and First Nations art. Disclaimer: I am by no means an expert at Wikipedia editing, and am learning as I go, so of course open to scrutiny and correction by those more schooled in the art of Wikipedia edits.  As an aside: I have to admit, I find it laughable that using primary sources in Wikipedia is frowned upon - but hey, that's just one person's opinion coming from a scientific background with over 70 original scientific journal publications to his name.  If it's the Wikipedia way, then so be it - rules are rules and made for a reason, which we should all abide by, even ones we disagree with. Please feel free to clean this article up so that it meets or exceeds Wikipedia standards. I caution those who think it should be deleted or merged into a massive, unwieldy Indian Group of Seven page. Big mistake.Misterlobat (talk) 23:27, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep I'm new to WP and to the deletion process, so I went to WP:BIO to look for the notability criteria for people. I don't know what is the minimum number of sources needed to justify "significant coverage". I found 8 secondary sources that I believe to be reliable and independent and that focus on Sanchez. Most of these have pictures of Sanchez and/or his art. I did not include the several sources that merely mention him as part of the Indian Group of Seven. See links below, of course I do not consider this quick online search to be exhaustive:

http://www.native-art-in-canada.com/joesanchez.html

https://www.lakelandtoday.ca/lac-la-biche-news/indigenous-artists-joseph-sanchez-and-alex-janvier-attend-lac-la-biche-museum-opening-1909492

https://www.albertanativenews.com/joseph-sanchez-reflects-on-the-indian-group-of-seven-in-advance-of-edmonton-exhibitions/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/indian-group-seven-joseph-sanchez-1.4603977

https://edmontonjournal.com/entertainment/local-arts/native-group-of-seven-show-engages-the-past-present-and-future/

https://ammsa.com/publications/alberta-sweetgrass/7-professional-native-indian-artists-inc-makes-final-tour-stop-edmon

https://ammsa.com/publications/alberta-sweetgrass/group-seven-recognized-breaking-ground

https://www.alternativesjournal.ca/people-and-profiles/focusing-first-nations-art (This last one is a journal with subscription wall, but I had access through a library portal)

Incidently, the Alberta Teacher's Association includes this WP article being discussed for deletion in a list of teaching resources about the Indigenous Group of seven: https://teachers-ab.libguides.com/c.php?g=710500&p=5083224

From the additional criteria Joseph Sanchez most likely meets WP:PROF due to his curatorial career, as Bearian indicated. Finally, I believe he also meets WP:Artist because of his exhibitions and being part of museum collections, as Netherzone pointed to.

This is that last criteria: "The person's work (or works) has: (a) become a significant monument, (b) been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) won significant critical attention, or (d) been represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums."

Alan Islas (talk) 12:52, 3 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep - The subject of this article is notable. The sources are out there, and simply need to be added to the article. The copyvio sections can be removed - easily. There is no need to delete or WP:TNT this article. It can be fixed, the notability is there. I suggest that those who found the sources add them to the article pronto, and those who found the copyvios remove them. I would do the copyvio removal, but for some reason, I cannot access the tool I use, which is Earwig's copyvio detector. If there is another tool available, please ping me, or post it on my talk page, and I will take care of the copyvios. The subject of the article is an important, notable Native American artist and curator. Netherzone (talk) 22:34, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Added some sources (and removed one, due to broken link), in particular about exhibitions. Mentioned permanent collection at museum in Portage Collage, and Sanchez' role as chief curator. Added external links section with a couple of links. Alan Islas (talk) 12:35, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I added three of the citations you listed above and a bit more content to the article. Netherzone (talk) 17:21, 6 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment I have trimmed the article form 17K to 6K, seeing as it was a 92% match for copyvio.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 15:34, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Revisions containing copyvio have now been suppressed by an admin. This is the last copyvio free version before the revdel.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 16:00, 5 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep I am seeing the notability now that the fluff and copyvio is gone.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 16:20, 5 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.