Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joshua Ferdinand


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was move to draft space. SpinningSpark 15:33, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Joshua Ferdinand

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Struggling to find any given sources that support the content of the article. Fails WP:GNG Theroadislong (talk) 19:24, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. Apparently non-notable; according to IMDb (which obviously is not a reliable source) he seems to have had uncredited rôles in Skyfall ("London commuter") and Captain America: The First Avenger ("US Marine"). While it's possible for quite important behind-the-scenes contributors to a film to be absent from the credits, no theatrical agent is going to let it happen to a known actor. Ferdinand has done a lot at the Bathway Theatre; that's not entirely surprising, because he studied at the University of Greenwich (Thames Poly to those of us with a long memory), where Pippa Guard teaches; the Bathway Theatre is, according to its website, "a facility of the Drama Department of the University of Greenwich". He's an acting student who has had a couple of tiny bit-parts. WP:TOOSOON. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:57, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep. The actor is listed in Spotlight actors Publisher: Clearway Logistics Phase 2-3, ISBN-10: 1848413289, ISBN-13: 978-1848413283 (Available on Amazon). Father was of noteworthy character as ABA super heavyweight champion. It appears his early career was no more tiny-bit parts in major productions. I guess the challenge is when looking at avant garde and arthouse actors it is difficult to find information if the actor works with a publicist to avoid such media attention. Justlettersandnumbers I believe he has graduated and been working in film since, writing and producing. The only way to verify the IMDb movie credits is to watch the productions, I did initially post links to the creative works that were in the public domain however I don't know if they've been removed. This was my first article about a niche character I met once on doing some research he has had mentions in international languages and the UK. It's just so darn hard to find. Is it possible to stub this article for improvement because I can't keep searching? Thank you.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pippathecat (talk • contribs) 21:54, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * , most actors pay to be in Spotlight, as it's a sort of suicide not to; it costs about £150 a year, and even a starving actor can usually find that. It does not confer any kind of notability for our purposes. I'm sorry that you have gone to trouble to create an article on someone who probably doesn't fulfil the basic requirements for having one (please don't let that discourage you from trying again). If there are sources about him in other languages you should add them to the article., what usually happens when there's a page about someone who shows promise but hasn't really done anything yet is that it gets deleted, with the understanding that it can be re-created once there are enough reliable sources to demonstrate notability. We don't stub it and wait for him to get famous. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:42, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

•Keep. This is a new user who's not really up on WP policies (I sent her a talk page message about it) but this guy does appear to be moving up in the show business. The article could be stubbed and marked for improvement later. White Arabian mare ( Neigh ) 21:59, 9 October 2015 (UTC)White Arabian mare Keep I disagree with Justlettersandnumbers. It looks like most of his work is after the bit-parts, he's, got God knows how many thanks credits & stage. I don't know why his PR an't pushing him but he certainly seems notable, this article needs improving however. Seems to meet the biography criteria to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.215.213 (talk) 00:56, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete I'm afraid it doesn't matter if the user who created the article is new or not - what matters is notability, plain and simple. If it's impossible to verify those IMDB sources because no reliable sources exists, it means this person has not been covered in multiple, reliable sources independent of the subject, - in other words, the subject lacks notability. Finnusertop (talk &#124; guestbook &#124; contribs) 23:26, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * comment since this article has been marked for deletion I have searched google alone in this time and been able to present a total of 26 references, while most are secondary sources and some of not high quality I've been doing it alone for an hour, I've seen other bios of living people with far less sources. This doesn't indicate that the character lacks notability. He's just tough to find on the internet, articles in multiple languages, over 10 thousand twitter followers, he's not, not notable. (A little bias as I'm a fan but still). Please consider helping improve the quality of this article and adding the right info bars as it meets the criteria for WP:BLP=Pass Pippathecat (talk) 23:56, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Weak Incubate or Delete I'm generally in favor of keeping articles that meet the minimum standard for notability... but this actor does not seem to meet the standard. Pippathecat, I'm sure someone has already pointed you here, but read Wikipedia's Golden Rule again. Any subject needs to have received significant coverage (not mere mentions) from third parties which are reliable sources by Wikipedia's standard (no blogs or sites like IMDb), or else that subject can't have a Wikipedia article. While I didn't check every source listed, every one I did check either merely mentioned Ferdinand or didn't mention him at all. Some of them looked unreliable too. If one of these sources constitutes significant coverage, by all means direct our attention to it. But lots of mentions don't add up to substantial coverage, not even if you had 200 sources instead of 20. Since it's being asserted that Ferdinand is getting more noteworthy roles and is expected to receive the substantial coverage needed to establish notability soon, incubating the article could be an option. You should understand, Pippathecat, that incubation is not indefinite; if no progress is made on the article after some months, it will be deleted. So think hard about whether you're sure the sources you need will come into existence within the next few months. (Also, you shouldn't make a boldfaced Keep/Delete/Incubate/etc. vote more than once without striking your previous vote. To add to the conversation, use  instead.) — GrammarFascist   contribs talk 01:20, 10 October 2015 (UTC)


 * comment Thank you for your guidance User:GrammarFascist, I'm not 100% sure how to strike out, would it be okay to delete it. I would like the article to be incubated now, it was previously in the draft space but I took it on myself to publish it early. Incubation would be a good idea while I continue looking for further sources of this guy & let other people decide when it's credible. Of course, I cannot deny I'm personally invested given the hours of research it took. Incubation will give me time to email the universities to see if they have any information/data visit their libraries and find more I guess ref.26&27 mention him the most but I think they're not RS. At least if it's in the draft space we can discuss it before it goes live again, I can probably find something in reference-able print related to him. I did think I was following the rules according to the WP:BLP one RS is enough and we can build on it from here, with the infobox on top . I do remember seeing an interview like Q&A in a magazine and another mentioning his performances, I just need a little more time to find it & get the references. Please bear in mind I'm not the fastest Wikipedian but I have read through some of the rules, although apparently not understood some fully but I'm learning. Thanks all so much.Pippathecat (talk) 08:46, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment You're welcome, Pippathecat. To strike text, use ;  yields wrong statement . Also, bear in mind that interviews do not count towards establishing notability because they are what the subject says about themselves, not what third parties say about them. If an article containing an interview also included a 4–6 paragraph profile of the subject, I myself might consider that to count towards notability... but note that many other editors would disagree with me. Best to focus on non-interview articles for establishing notability. — GrammarFascist   contribs talk 11:36, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

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 * comment UPDATE: I've updated the page as best I can for now, he's more of an artist/actor than specifically an actor who seems to have been travelling Europe and the US. Citations are hard to come by however if you more experienced Wikipedian's and admins can help that's great. I've read the BLP criteria and he is clearly sourced in at least one material; William John, ed. (2012-12-23). "SUUG Latitude". p. 5. The other notable sources are reference numbers: 1, 38, 39 and 40, the last 3 (these will change however as people update the article). I'll tinker with it for now and hopefully, it will pass and be kept with an improvement notice for more RS. I'll look for profiles on him that cover and analyse his work more.
 * Delete or move to draft space and put under WP:AFC. I don't see anything here there clearly establishes notability. Lets look at the sources listed in the comment above a s particularly useful. No 1 is to "Spotlight Actors". I don't have access, but a comment above says that anyone can have a listing for an annual fee. If true, this is not a useful so8urce at all. No 38 is "Impressionist France", program notes for an museum exhibition. It lists several photos as being by Joshua Ferdinand, but says nothing whatever about him beyond that he took these photos, which are reproductions of impressionist art, not original works. Not a helpful source. No 39 is "Ferdinand Knapp (2014)" which is used to support a quote. Unfortunately that quote is not about Joshua Ferdinand but about Ferdinand Knapp who is the title character in a short film. I can't find any mention that Joshua Ferdinand was in any way connected with this film. No 40 is  "Boom 2012, Tag 3: Depression 'Scratchbook'". This seems to be a personal account (or perhaps a work of fiction) in which the narrator is distressed and separated from his or her friend (or perhaps lover) after what seems to have been a bad drug experience. During this the narrator hears a presentation by Joshua Ferdinand, and records internal responses to some of the phrases apparently quoted from the lecture. Even if this was to be considered a reliable source, and even if it were clear that this is the same Joshua Ferdinand (which it isn't to me) all that it establishes is that Joshua Ferdinand once gave a public lecture or presentation at a festival. Not exactly what Wikipedia notability is made of. If these are the best four sources out of 40, I dread to think what the others may be like. This just isn't good enough. DES (talk) 13:11, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
 * comment Hi DES, sorry I didn't know 39 wasn't about him, I'll delete it. Yeah, I've made a few mistakes while building this article kindly give me some more time to find the RS to meet the criteria for BLP, there's an awful lot to wade through and he's quite obscure but notable and active. I did check the social media to verify if it's the same artist, however I can't read German and the translation isn't too clear. Based on what you've said though it is a poor quality secondary source. I'm still trying to improve it so please bear with me. Pippathecat (talk) 14:54, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
 * , you should not include a source unless you have read it and are confident that it applies to the subject (in this case to the right person) and that it is a reliable source and supports the statement(s) for which it is cited. If you can't read German, and the translation isn't clear enough to be sure, ask an editor who can read German before citing the source. In draft space there is  more leeway, but in the main article space th4ese policies should be complied with from the start. I understand that you are trying in good faith to write abnout a person you think is notable, without an improper purpose. *If the artuicle is delted, a new version can always be started in draft space -- it isn't the end of the world. DES (talk) 20:31, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
 * move to draft space He is listed in a biographical article here: https://edchat.net/threads/joshua-ferdinand-biography.40919. There are articles about him scattered about online but if he's a travelling artist you're going to need more than one person to build this as a good BLP. It should be moved until more RS are found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:5D30:8800:B8FF:3F79:468:521E (talk) 17:00, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment to and anyone else searching for sources: please don't confuse this person with the apparently better-known Joshua Ferdinand who is a photographer in Kansas City, Missouri – where some of the photographs in source #38 were taken. That makes it pretty unlikely that they were taken by a British actor. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 00:28, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Further comment: Simon Fellowes's My Name is Ferdinand is about a character called Ferdinand Rios; according to Google, the word "Joshua" does not occur in it. So what does it have to do with this actor? In the same vein, an adaptation for children of Munro Leaf's famous book was presented at the Edinburgh Fringe this year by the "Tasty Monster Productions team of Luke Tudball and Heather Bagnall … performed by Tudball and directed by Bagnall". What does that have to do with this young man? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 01:03, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Make a draft: I believe this character sometimes performs under pseudonyms, however there are little if any RS for him. Pippathecat nice effort but there's too much confusion for most of these to be verified, you should have started this as a draft in WP:AFC. As mentioned above the photography doesn't appear to be attributed to the same person you are writing about. There's potential for a BLP but this needs editing and the incorrect citations to be removed and to be developed further. 2A02:C7D:5D30:8800:91CD:86E5:26B2:E63D (talk) 09:01, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
 * 2A02:C7D:5D30:8800:91CD:86E5:26B2:E63D (talk) 09:01, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: Hi Justlettersandnumbers, I've removed the incorrect attributions, I was unaware that there's a separate photographer. As with the work referring to Ferdinand I understand that he is occasionally attributed as "Ferdinand". Unsure so I removed that too. Pippathecat (talk) 13:06, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:50, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:50, 12 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete: Fails proving notability. --Aliciadewi (talk) 05:23, 12 October 2015 (UTC) Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Aliciadewi (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion.
 * Comment I have updated the article with more references, should pass WP:GNG as it has more than 2 sources and an award. Aliciadewi, why edit the article then ask for it to be deleted? There's notability about I don't know what you mean. Pippathecat (talk) 13:56, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Definite Keep And Comment I found the subject quite notable. The subject meets notability as it has multiple reviews at Articles for deletion. I am removing the template on the page. It should not be considered as patrolling the admins. If any admins have a better way to sort this then they are most welcome. I have no connection with the subject.Giving my opinion as I work on Celebrity pages. Natalia.chase (talk) 02:49, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete simply for now and draft and userfy if needed as I would say weak keep if at all because of the current state but his IMDb seems to summarize it well suggesting there's not much else. SwisterTwister   talk  04:14, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * comment Should add   or IMDb to the page, if it's not improved then delete. Pippathecat (talk)
 * Keep: Notable can stub and improve with stage credits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neelaamber (talk • contribs) 13:44, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete: Considering that this actor has become active relatively recently, and that the IMDB is seemingly the best source on him, I do not see any reasonable way of proving his notability. Someone mentioned his father's notability, however, it cannot be inherited. If majority of his roles are uncredited, and none of them can be detailed in more than two sentences, I highly doubt his notability is strong enough. Even if multiple reliable references would appear overnight, he would still fail notability due to depth of coverage's apparent lack. No reason to move this to the draft space, this would just get stale out there, and we would have a MfD discussion... Ceosad (talk) 14:22, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment (I moved in favor of either incubating or deleting the article above and have not changed my opinion): I have reviewed the sources added over the past week, and while they have edged Joshua Ferdinand slightly closer to meeting the notability standard, I'm afraid he still falls short. To give you more specific guidance, Pippathecat, the content of the EdChat reference is the kind of coverage you're looking for — substantially more than a mere mention — but it is not a reliable source. Similarly, the PRLog reference has substantial content about Joshua Ferdinand, but it is a press release and thus not independent of the subject of this article; a press release tells us only what its issuer says about themselves, not what others say about them. The scratchbook.ch source, written in Swiss German (which may be part of why automatic translation of that text remains confusing), might constitute substantial content depending on what it actually says, but that's ultimately irrelevant to establishing Ferdinand's notability because it is a blog and thus not a reliable source. The kind of source needed to meet the notability standard may not yet have been published. If this article is deleted, as seems likely, and reliable, independent sources are later published that include substantial coverage of Ferdinand, you will be able to ask for the article to be undeleted so you can simply add the new sources to the work you have already done. — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 12:00, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. Fails WP:ENT. Actor has appeared in small roles, most un-credited. Article also appears to be a borderline case of WP:CITEKILL where the article creator / editor seems to be desperate to get the article passed. Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk)  05:01, 19 October 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.