Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Judge Death


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to List of Judge Dredd characters. I just don't want to see this article die and a redirect followed by a merge into a collective list is a long standing convention when notability is disputed. Spartaz Humbug! 20:37, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Judge Death

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

No indication of relationship with GNG/NFICTION, pure PLOT+list of appearances in media. Cool name though. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:49, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  03:49, 16 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Agree, delete. But, as a regular recurring character, I'd suggest merging to a new List of supporting characters in Judge Dredd. --Nicknack009 (talk) 07:39, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 11:51, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 11:51, 16 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge as above. As usual, deletion of information which can be merged elsewhere benefits nobody. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:58, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Again, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. "Wikipedia treats creative works (including, for example, works of art or fiction, video games, documentaries, research books or papers, and religious texts) in an encyclopedic manner, discussing the development, design, reception, significance, and influence of works in addition to concise summaries of those works." See also Manual of Style/Writing about fiction. Is your information encyclopedic, or is it just a catalogue of trivia and minutiae? The current Judge Death article is the latter, like most Judge-Dredd-related content on Wikipedia, is very much the latter and it needs culled.--Nicknack009 (talk) 16:45, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep As usual with these nominations, no effort has been made to search for sources as required by WP:BEFORE and WP:NEXIST. It only takes a few seconds to find substantial coverage such as this.  The topic therefore passes WP:GNG and applicable policies include WP:ATD, WP:NOTPAPER, WP:PRESERVE. Andrew🐉(talk) 14:47, 16 December 2019 (UTC) "Jumpin' Jiggy Jiggs: "B-b-but I haven't done anything!" Judge Death: "You live. That isss ssufficcient.""


 * Your link is not "substantial coverage". It's a text page in a Judge Dredd comic. --Nicknack009 (talk) 16:45, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * That source passes WP:SIGCOV as it contains and verifies many facts about the subject, such as their first appearance. It is quite adequate and, in any case, there many more sources out there such as that.  As sources are so easy to find, and the nominator clearly hasn't made the slightest effort to familiarise himself with the topic, the discussion should be terminated per WP:SK to avoid further waste of time.  Andrew🐉(talk) 16:54, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * SIGCOV says "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list." (emphasis in original). A one page recap in a Judge Dredd comic is neither significant nor independent, so certainly does not pass SIGCOV. Your second link, the book War, Politics and Superheroes, is a bit better: it's independent at least, but is one page in one book significant? I can't find anything else on Google Books. There's nothing relevant at the British Newspaper Archive. I can't find anything else but fan pages and news reports of the death of a real-world judge. If there sources out there to establish real-world (not "in-universe") notability, I can't find them. --Nicknack009 (talk) 18:00, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Significant coverage: Here are a number of sources just from a quick Google search, some of which attest to him being an "iconic character". I'd say it's a given that this is notable to the topic of comics on Wikipedia:, , , , , , , , , , , , , . Piotrus and TTN are not bothering to check for sources or look into the subject matter of the article before spamming copious amounts of deletion nominations, which TTN has even indicated to me directly. Articles for deletion/Goblin (Marvel Comics) is a major example of this, where TTN not only didn't check for sources, but jumped to the erroneous conclusion that the article was a "collection of unrelated topics". It was pointed out to him that the characters were not unrelated, he decided to insist that they were (even after several sources were provided proving otherwise), before trying to downplay the point altogether. At this point, these deletion spammings are causing a number of problems, and TTN and Piotrus don't seem to have the slightest clue how WP:GNG works.  Dark Knight  2149  23:27, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The vast majority of those are trivial mentions, a couple of them literally the character's name once or twice. I really don't get why people post link dumps to prove a point without actually perusing them. TTN (talk) 23:33, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * This is blatantly not the case, and anyone who sorts through these sources can see that they discuss Death in great detail. A few of them even directly refer to him as "iconic".  Dark Knight  2149  23:51, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * And much of nothing else. "The character is iconic. [23][24][25][26][27]" is not much of an article. Passing mentions of no substance do not belong in articles. TTN (talk) 23:55, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * And here is the same familiar WP:IDONTHEARTHAT you displayed at the Goblin nomination.  Dark Knight  2149  23:57, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * No, it's just a difference in judgement on sourcing standards. We don't ultimately need to agree, but I'm hopeful our dialogue will show the closer and any other !voters that these are ultimately useless. That you refer to any disagreement with your opinions as ignoring some greater truth is a common trend you've displayed. TTN (talk) 00:01, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * No, there's a lot more here than you are letting on. Including coverage of a title role in a video game, multiple coverage of a potential film adaptation, explications as to why he's a fan favourite, brief descriptions of his origins, sources describing how Judge Death has influenced other comic book characters and creators, ETC:
 * "IT'S DREDD VS DEATH IN 2000AD'S PUNISHING NEW DREDD: FINAL JUDGEMENT #1 - Until we get confirmation of a potential Mega-City One TV series, the next best thing arrives this week in the form of Dredd: Final Judgement #1. This punishing release acts as a comic book tie-in to screenwriter Alex Garland and director Pete Travis' hyperkinetic feature film from 2012, and showcases a cataclysmic clash between Judge Dredd and Judge Death. "Finding an approach that 'clicked' was the biggest challenge, we didn't just want to port over the comics version of Judge Death with a movie version of his uniform, it had to be something that resonated with the themes and feel of the movie — not just more gritty, but also with an emotional core that resonates," he added. "Fantastical elements are also something that the Movie Dredd has shied away from a little, but I think we found a tone for them that works -- shades of John Carpenter and Japanese horror mixed with Garland's action violence. I'm not sure it's going to be exactly what people expect from Judge Death, but once it all clicked into place it seemed like a very natural extension of the movie universe. These Dark Judges, this Dead World, their story is really founded on a prevailing sense of despair about the chances of anything in Mega-City One (or any city) ever getting better... as well as some actual physics about why you’d want to access the Dead World. We’ve wanted to remain true to what fans love about the Dark Judges, and of course about Dredd, while making their terror feel fresh to a new generation of reader. One of the things I’m proudest of in the story is how twice we examine Judge Dredd’s greatest fear — the first time, what he thinks it is; the second, what it actually is." (Significant coverage)
 * "'Judge Dredd' Characters Star in New '2000 AD' Art (Exclusive) - Tula Lotay's illustration of Judge Anderson and Judge Death will only be available to print subscribers of the comic book publisher..." (Judge Death is a key subject of this article from The Hollywood Reporter)
 * "Karl Urban’s Judge Dredd Meets The Dark Judges - Karl Urban has confirmed on several occasions that he is actively involved in talks to reprise the role, which would anchor the new TV series in the same universe as his 2012 film adaptation. Readers of the comics have already been able to follow the adventures of Urban’s version of Joe Dredd in an official sequel series to the movie, and this month sees the character finally come face to face with newly created versions of legendary Dredd foes, The Dark Judges. Ever since their debut back in 1981, Judges Death, Fear, Fire and Mortis have proven to be the most repellant bad guys that 2000 AD has ever produced. Dispatching the populations of whole planets in their trademark gruesome fashion, they have featured in the biggest and most popular Dredd storylines, enjoying a truly unsettling reboot with the creation of the recent ‘Deadworld’ origins series." (More significant coverage that goes into why he's iconic)
 * "Judge Dredd Co-Creator Says Fox Turned Down Judge Death Movie - n 2014, Shankar produced a six-part animated spinoff-ish series in which Dredd takes on the Dark Judges, led by the character's traditional arch-nemesis Judge Death. According to Judge Dredd's co-creator John Wagner, a Judge Death storyline was in Alex Garland's original script. As Wagner told Screen Geek: "That was actually the first script that Alex Garland did was a Judge Death script but Fox, who they were dealing with at the time, turned it down. They wanted more nuts and bolts before they went into the metaphysical." Judge Death was a twisted, murderous psychopath who eventually invaded Dredd's world and clashed with him repeatedly." (More significant coverage and potential movie plans)
 * "Dredd: Fox Passed on a Judge Death Movie - Judge Dredd creator John Wagner on a Dredd sequel, and the day Fox passed on Judge Death... For one day, we wish we were in charge of greenlighting movies at 20th Century Fox. We’d have used up our day on the one that Alex Garland took a script for a Judge Death movie into the studio, only for Fox to pass on it. “I wouldn’t mind seeing a Judge Death movie. That was actually the first script that Alex Garland did, a Judge Death script but Fox, who they were dealing with at the time, turned it down. They wanted more nuts and bolts before they went into the metaphysical”." (More coverage about potential movie adaptation)
 * "Dredd, portrayed by the typically grizzled Wolverine-esque character, is out to thwart Death and the other Dark Judges. These extra dimensional shades hail from a chaotic realm where man is not welcome. Previously captured by Dredd, the ethereal Death has managed to escape his maximum security confinement and seeks to end all life, for he has deemed living to be a crime since humanity is inexorably prone to sin. Dredd, the fun loving human that he is, wants to not have everyone killed. And so the shooting begins. (Continued in-depth)" (Significant coverage of title role in a video game)
 * "Dredd Creator Reveals Fox Passed On A Judge Death Film - Wagner then pointed out that "everyone wants to see Judge Death" head up a film -- and apparently that idea was floated about at one point. "That was actually the first script that 'Dredd' screenwriter Alex Garland did was a Judge Death script but Fox, who they were dealing with at the time, turned it down. They wanted more nuts and bolts before they went into the metaphysical." Judge Death was created by Wagner and Brian Bolland and debuted in a 1980 "2000 AD" storyarc spanning issues #149-151 of the anthology series. He resides in an alternate dimension where living has been declared a crime. You can check out video of the interview with Wagner below." (More significant coverage and potential movie adaptation)
 * "Fox Turned Down a Judge Death ‘Dredd’ Film: Sequel “Will Happen” (Continued)" (Ditto)
 * "First Look At Dredd Spinoff's Spooky Judge Death - Above you’ll see a shot of Judge Dredd going tooth for tooth in the face of his evil nemesis Judge Death, as Superfiend will focus on the Dark Judges from the comics. It’s something fans definitely wanted to see happen in any possible Dredd sequel, and may still one day, but for now we’re getting them like this. And that’s okay by me, because these stills make Superfiend look like it'll fly pretty close to its comic source material. Here’s a shot of Judge Death giving the worst kind of punishment, animated or real, that "eye" can think of. The images, from EW, don’t really give a big hint as to the miniseries’ plot, which hasn’t been revealed just yet. Chances are, it will follow the basic story of Judge Death leaving his parallel dimension for Mega-City One, where he tries to destroy all life, eventually facing Dredd. At some point, his fellow Dark Judges Mortis, Fire and Fear will presumably make their way into it, and then violence-fueled nerdgasms will begin happening spontaneously across the Net. Here’s a particularly bloody shot from Collider."
 * "The mini-series follows the exploits of Judge Sidney, a fan-favorite character perhaps better known as Judge Death. Centering the project on this character allows fans to see Sidney come to life in an animated form, and come into his own as a horrific, other-worldly version of the heroic Judge Dredd. While Judge Dredd: Superfiend doesn’t quite branch out to include the other Dark Judges or their numerous misadventures, it does give fans a taste of Sidney’s sadistic beginnings (and possible end)."
 * "This is the landmark storyline where we meet Judge Death, who comes from a parallel dimension where the Judges decided that the only way to stop all crime was to make life itself illegal — and all living beings were found guilty and condemned to death. Judge Death comes to Mega-City One to carry out the ultimate judgement that Dredd and his colleagues are unable to, but is stopped by the psychic Judge Anderson. Later, Death escapes with the help of three other Dark Judges, and Dredd and Anderson are forced to face them on their home territory. Why it's essential: Yet another dark reflection of Dredd, in which we see a monstrous version who takes Dredd's extreme measures to an even more extreme place. Also notable for the supreme "fuck yeah" moment where Dredd faces Judge Fear, whose gaze is so terrifying that anyone who sees his face dies instantly. "Gaze into the Face of Fear!" the Dark Judge intones. See Dredd's response at left." (Coverage that further elaborates on his significance)
 * "Judge Dredd co-creator reveals there was a Judge Death script already written - Karl Urban is on the record as being up for it, and now the character's co-creator John Wagner has revealed that there was actually a script written for a sequel named Judge Death - and he seems confident it'll happen one day. (Continued)" (More significant coverage of potential film adaptation)
 * "Jock, you are known for your Judge Dredd work, and obviously there are comparisons between The Batman Who Laughs and Judge Death. Are there things that you can kind of draw from the 2000 AD sensibility to help make this character even creepier? Jock: What I don't want to do is make them too similar, but I think you're right that The Batman Who Laughs and Judge Death have have a similar aesthetic. I grew up with Brian Bolland drawing Judge Death and, yeah, they're definitely the kind of touch-touch going to a tone, maybe, but beyond that I mean really one of my goals is to get away from that, you know, as much as you can, because obviously The Batman Who Laughs is a lone character and something very different." "Brown: The Batman Who Laughs seems inspired by Judge Death - My wild guess is there is another comic baddie who inspired the creation of the Batman Who Laughs, not a DC or Marvel character, but one from a faraway land. I think the Batman Who Laughs is Judge Death. If you’ve ever heard of the British comic series 2000 A.D., which featured the adventures of future lawman Judge Dredd, you’ll know about whom I’m talking. udge Death comes from the alternative dimension of Deadworld. Like Dredd and Batman, Death is a law enforcer who decrees that all life must be terminated, since only the living commit crimes. The Batman Who Laughs has inspired much talk on the internet about how he resembles Judge Death, so I’m not the only one who sees the similarities. If you’re looking for inspiration, you could do a lot worse." (How the character has influence other comic book characters and creators)
 * "Inside the anthology, a cadre of felonious fiends and outlandish outlaws awaits, as the grim lawman of the future faces a familiar toothy grin in Judge Death: The Judge Who Laughs by Rob Williams and Henrik Sahlstrom, alongside a nightmarish fantasy with Lord Weird Slough Feg: Lord of the Hunt by Pat Mills and Kyle Hotz. “The Villains Takeover Special is a great way to discover some of our most classic bad guys. There’s the popular ones like Judge Death, of course, but also some of the lesser-known villains such as Brass and Bland from Rogue Trooper – characters who met their match but are too interesting to let slip into the darkness."" (No significant coverage exists, huh?)
 * and are also absolutely correct with these points:
 * "One of the top villains in one of the last British comic books left standing (also a batman crossover for no readily apparent reason). That gets you coverage in the likes of "Comics & Culture: Analytical and Theoretical Approaches to Comics" "Character Design from the Ground Up: Make Your Sketches Come to Life" and unfortunately "Anderson v Dredd 2137 Mega-City LR 1" Additionally we have coverage due to Superfiend potential TV series a a cancelled computer game and a Tv series."
 * "Also I should note even current articles compare a new popular character like The Batman Who Laughs to him. A few example of the sources are in that Wikipedia page."  Dark Knight  2149  06:13, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * It's a whole lot of text that ultimately says nothing much. The majority of that is about the works in which the character appears rather than the character itself. Then just little blurbs mentioning the character. Much like several other of these AfDs, any resulting article built off of that is going to have an over-reliance on massive blurbs of text in order to seem more important than the sources actually show. This may just be a disconnect in how various comic articles seem to put way more weight on the fictional character over the series in which they appear. It seems like the character is treated as encompassing all series rather than being an element used in those series. TTN (talk) 12:04, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * My !vote has been used a hook for lots of detailed discussion and evidence. For avoidance of doubt, please note that my !vote stands.  There is ample evidence that the topic is notable, deletion would violate numerous policies such as WP:ATD, and alternate ideas such as merger seem half-baked because the proposed targets do not exist. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:20, 19 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep: I did a google search and found some results for him. You just got to type magic key words here. Also I should note even current articles compare a new popular character like The Batman Who Laughs to him. A few example of the sources are in that Wikipedia page. Jhenderson  7 7 7  18:30, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/its-dredd-vs-death-in-2000ads-punishing-new-dredd-final-judgement-1
 * https://lfpress.com/entertainment/books/brown-the-batman-who-laughs-seems-inspired-by-judge-death
 * https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/exclusive-bad-guys-rule-in-our-extended-peek-at-2000-ads-fcbd-villains-takeover-special
 * The British Comic Book Invasion: Alan Moore, Warren Ellis, Grant Morrison and the Evolution of the American Style


 * Delete - Sources need to be provided for them to be taken into consideration. As of now, no sources = no notability. TTN (talk) 18:49, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd rate the above sources as mostly passing mentions. The most in-depth real world information is just a quote from a creator, which doesn't particularly help the notability issue. Otherwise, it's pretty minor stuff like a one sentence opinion on inspiration for a Batman comic and a half a sentence describing the character as popular. TTN (talk) 19:25, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * No, per WP:BEFORE, WP:NEXIST, and other policies, you have to make an effort to find out if significant coverage exists and do the bare minimum to assess if the article can be improved before nominating deletion (unless it is absolutely obvious beforehand that the topic isn't notable). You can't just dig up as many C-class articles as you can, immediately scroll to the References section, and then automatically tag all of them for deletion based on that alone.  Dark Knight  2149  08:18, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The only one expected to follow BEFORE is the nominator so not sure why you’re making a grandstand on my !vote. You’re also confusing a lack of BEFORE with a disagreement on the importance of sources. TTN (talk) 10:43, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I concur with TTN. I have seen some of those sources during my search for sources (BEFORE) and all they boil down to is one-sentence of 'Batman who laughs is inspired b Judge Deaths (among several other tropes)" etc. Not much to work with here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:48, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * "The British Comic Book Invasion: Alan Moore, Warren Ellis, Grant Morrison and the Evolution of the American Style" pages 125 and 126 are a bit more than 1 sentence (and doesn't mention batman).©Geni (talk) 04:54, 18 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep One of the top villains in one of the last British comic books left standing (also a batman crossover for no readily apparent reason). That gets you coverage in the likes of "Comics & Culture: Analytical and Theoretical Approaches to Comics" "Character Design from the Ground Up: Make Your Sketches Come to Life" and unfortunately "Anderson v Dredd [2137] Mega-City LR 1" Additionally we have coverage due to Superfiend potential TV series a a cancelled computer game and a Tv series.©Geni (talk) 02:44, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Still mentions in passing, I am afraid. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:48, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * You just described an entire chapter as a mention in passing.©Geni (talk) 04:44, 18 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep - Substantial coverage exists. Stop finding as many start-class comic character articles as you can, scrolling to the References section, and then blindly tagging them for deletion. This is ridiculous and I'm already about to report TTN this week for their particularly disruptive conduct with these bulk nominations.


 * That's not to say that no articles can be nominated for deletion, but this string of mass nominations is clearly motivated by certain users not liking how comic-related content is handled on Wikipedia and trying to bypass relevant discussion by nominating as much stuff as possible, rather than working to create legitimate change through consensus. These bulk nominations are them throwing as much shit at the wall to see what sticks.  Dark Knight  2149  08:18, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:ATTP is not a valid argument at AFD, and TTN isn't even the nominator of this one. Rorshacma (talk) 19:58, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Nope. Everything I just said is pertinent and upon further inspection, this is a joint effort between TTN and Piotrus (who are both equally responsible for the deletion spam currently taking place). I would recommend looking through other discussions that are currently taking place on this matter. My statement 100% stands.  Dark Knight  2149  22:59, 18 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge into a new List of Judge Dredd characters. Like most other JD characters, this fails WP:NOT big time, so there is simply no need for a character-specific WP:SPINOUT article. But as a main character it should probably be covered somewhere. – sgeureka t•c 13:35, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Redirect, for now, to Judge Dredd, the main article on the franchise where he is mentioned already. I agree with the arguments above that the sources that can be found are not substantial enough to pass the WP:GNG, as they are either brief, passing mentions, or fall largely into plot summary.  If the proposed List of Judge Dredd characters is created, a merge would be appropriate.  Until then, though, a Redirect to the franchise page would be sufficient for directing searches to an appropriate article, and preserving the article history for any future endeavors at creating the character list.  Rorshacma (talk) 19:58, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep, or at worst merge into the proposed new list. There are numerous sources listed above that may or may not be good, but I find these two books quite strong: War, Politics and Superheroes and Character Design from the Ground Up: Make Your Sketches Come to Life and the law journal paper "Anderson v Dredd [2137] Mega-City LR 1" coming from and, respectively, and they are all I need to see. To the question of one page in the former being significant, I say yes since significant requires addressing the subject directly and in detail, not lengthily. It directly discusses his hyperbolic representation of ultra conservatives. The paper discusses his representation of the horror of the overall fictional world and that he is satire built upon satire. -2pou (talk) 06:55, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment: This AfD discussion is now over twice as long as the article it's about. J I P  &#124; Talk 17:02, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Not in a position to vote here, but there should be a word for that. Questions? ミラP 18:43, 21 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete, although I wouldn't be opposed to a redirect. Very little real world coverage. All the sources are simply mentions of the character appearing in this and that. I guess it all comes down to whether or not you look at WP as an encyclopedia, or a fan wiki. Onel 5969  TT me 19:38, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
 * "Character Design from the Ground Up: Make Your Sketches Come to Life" Doesn't mention the character appearing in this and that. Anderson v Dredd [2137] Mega-City LR 1 doesn't mention any specific appearances.©Geni (talk) 17:21, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete No in-depth coverage, and therefore fails WP:GNG. The quantity of the sources do not matter if they are not in-depth enough to pass GNG. Devonian Wombat (talk) 23:54, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
 * GNG does not require in-depth coverage.©Geni (talk) 14:23, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. The British Comic Book Invasion by notable author Alan Moore here on P125 says: "One of the most famous Dredd serials, introducing the villian called Judge Death, is a case in point". Moore then goes on in the pages to describe Death as Dredd's doppleganger.  Another source here, says that the 2012 film Dredd was going to be about Judge Death instead?  While the referencing is admittedly thin, per WP:PRESERVE and WP:NOTPAPER, this is an important charachter in the highly notable Judge Dredd comic series, and should be kept. Britishfinance (talk) 18:14, 24 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.