Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Junko Fujii


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. There is disagreement on how Paralympics and Asian Para Games participation relates to notability and no clear consensus has formed here. The article in its present state is fairly short, and the sporting achievements made are all cited. With verifiability requirements met, I see nothing mandating a deletion given the lack of a rough consensus on this one. Sjakkalle (Check!)  09:33, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Junko Fujii

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Does not pass WP:NOLYMPICS as she hasn't won a medal at the Paralympics. No indication of passing WP:GNG. Sports Devotee (talk) 00:32, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. GabeIglesia (talk) 04:06, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. GabeIglesia (talk) 04:06, 25 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep Notable volleyball player as she is has a brood sport Career. She competed at at least 2 Summer Paralympics. She also represents her country at other notable international competitions and won the silver medal at the Asia Games. Besides of playing for the national team she is full time playing for her club. It's hard to get second source articles as they are all in Japanese. Sander.v.Ginkel (Talk) 05:20, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Disability-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:21, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete instead for now and Draft if someone needs it, as it may've have been considerable for keeping, but it's also still questionable for necessary notability improvements which includes better coverage, something apparently currently unavailable. SwisterTwister   talk  00:27, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - As the nom said, doesn't pass WP:NOLYMPICS, and searches did not turn up enough in-depth coverage to show they pass WP:GNG.  Onel 5969  TT me 14:09, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 21:28, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - Won a medal at one of the highest International competition. MFriedman (talk) 07:34, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - as noted above multiple times a Paralympian, medal winner at continental games. If I spoke Japanese I'm sure additional sources could be found - Ba se me nt 12  (T.C) 09:10, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete: Fails NOLYMPICS, and no evidence that the subject meets the GNG. The Keep proponents might not be aware that simply being a Paralympian or medaling at a regional para meet meets no notability standard on Wikipedia.  Further, that there may be qualifying sources in the Japanese press is irrelevant.  As WP:V explicitly holds, the burden of proof is on the editor who claims that qualifying sources exist.  If you do not demonstrate that they do, alleging that they might is not a valid reason to keep.   Ravenswing   10:13, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Note I would not call it a regional meet. I would call South Asian Games, Southeast Asian Games and Western Asiatic Games regional games. The Asian Games are one of the most popular and prestigieus sport events for Asian people. Sometimes even more prestigious than World Championships for Asian sportspeople. Sander.v.Ginkel (Talk) 12:12, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Reply: Is it a worldwide meet? No.  Is it a national meet?  No.  That's a regional meet.  "Prestigious" is a subjective (and, in this case, irrelevant) term.  The fact remains that Fujii meets no notability criteria for athletes, period.  (Heck, there aren't any SNGs for volleyball players participating in the FIVB World Championships or inducted into the Volleyball Hall of Fame, except in so far as they're Olympians, never mind for sitting volleyball players.)   Ravenswing   15:17, 5 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment - I have found and added her athlete profile from the IPC as a reference. Admittedly not the fullest one they've ever produced but it has details on her life and career - Ba se me nt 12  (T.C) 13:42, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment I asked the Japanese WikiProject for her Japanese name or secondary sources in Japanese. See: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan. Sander.v.Ginkel (Talk) 16:15, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:NBIO, which states, "An athlete is presumed to be notable if the person has actively participated in a major amateur or professional competition or won a significant honor and so is likely to have received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject." She has done both. The Asia Games are considered a "major amateur competition", and would be considered international since it encompasses the whole of the largest and most populous continent in the world. About 5,500 athletes from 45 Asian member nations participated (which is more than half of the number who participated in the 2012 Olympics). Her team got the silver medal there, which means they won a "significant honor". ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 17:11, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: It means the team won a "significant honor." Notability is still not inherited.  Beyond that, you and the other Keep proponents are making a significant mistake. Fujii did not compete at the Asia Games.  She competed at the Asian Para Games, which is a different competition altogether.   Ravenswing   01:52, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * It has the same relation to the Asian Games that the Paralympics have with the Olympics. There is no mistake here. It's part of the same event set. ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 05:09, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd certainly agree that the Asian Para Games are to the Asian Games as the Paralympics are to the Olympics; a less-noted competition, run by a different organization, held at a different time, and for which no presumptive notability is awarded. (Possibly that was a parallel you'd prefer not to have drawn.)   Ravenswing   10:25, 6 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete This brings up three common issues:


 * 1. What is "a major amateur or professional competition?" This has basically been interpreted as the Olympics for Olympic-events and some wiggle room for championships of major sports not in the Olympics.  Continental games do not generally reach that level.  As an example, WP:NTRACK states in criterion #3 that only a top-3 Asian Games finish gives a presumption of notability.  Therefore, someone finishing in 4th would not receive the presumption.  Just competing in a continental games is not enough.


 * 2. The status of Para-athletes. I only see three mentions for them  - WP:NCURLING, WP:NEQUESTRIAN, and WP:NOLYMPICS.  Clearly they were considered for inclusion, but only limited inclusion given.  Anything else is overreaching.


 * 3. Presumptions in general. A presumption is just that - a presumption.  Not an ironclad rule.  At best, the presumption for this article is suspect and I think most editors would say there is no presumption.  Considering the questionable presumption, I think it is fair to have a show cause for this case.  In Articles for deletion/Luke Wilton the boxer met WP:NBOX yet was deleted because GNG could not be established.  Articles for deletion/Scott Sinclair (footballer born 1991) is one of many soccer players that pass WP:NFOOTY yet is not considered to pass GNG.


 * For this article, almost all the references fail the independence requirement. The International Paralympic Committee and Japan Para-Volleyball Association are not independent.  The only possible independent source, asahi.com, merely lists a the players name.  Nothing here shows GNG being met.  Therefore delete. RonSigPi (talk) 19:14, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * A silver medal is a "top three" finish. It's a second place finish, not fourth. So that destroys your point in point 1. Regarding point 2, just because other notability guidelines included a specific mention of a type of athlete and other ones didn't include it doesn't mean those types of athletes cannot be notable in those categories. It just means no one brought it up before. Regarding 3, if an article passed a more specific notability guideline, they automatically pass GNG. Notability is notability is notability, regardless of how they attain that notability. If people are trying to say something should be deleted because they pass a specific notability guideline but not GNG, they have no solid understanding of how notability works here. ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 22:03, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * For point 1, yes silver is top three. However, one sport specific guideline does not port to another, especially a team event in comparison to an individual.  For point 2, nothing in the guidelines suggested a regional competition in a para-event would confer a presumption of notability.  Absence does not mean you can presume what you want.  For point 3, that is just wrong.  GNG always trumps an SNG.  This is why WP:NSPORT starts with "A person is presumed to be notable" - its only a presumption. RonSigPi (talk) 00:13, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * A second place finish is acceptable regardless of whether it is a team or individual event, regardless of your opinion on the issue. A silver medal is a silver medal in any international sporting competition. It means they are at the top of their game. Technically, the world is a region, too, so the Olympics are just a slightly larger regional event than the one that encompasses more than half of the world's population. As you said, absence does not mean tou can presume what you want. As for starting with "presumed", go read the first sentence on WP:GNG and you'll see that it also uses that wording. In order to be considered notable, a topic must pass either the GNG or a more specific guideline. The more specific guidelines are there to help people figure out specific notability. Regardless of how it is established (whether generally or more specifically), notability is the same across the board. Meeting the notability requirements in one area means the topic is notable. It doesn't need to meet two or three or ten different notability guidelines. One is sufficient. ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 00:23, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * And it does not meet a single SNG. Under your rationale finishing second in the tri-county pie eating contest would give a presumption of notability.  Any tri-county area is just a sub-region of the earth after all.  BTW, looking further at the 2010 Asian Para Games the standards are very low.  For example, in 1500 m T37 at Athletics at the 2010 Asian Para Games only two competitors showed up, and they were both from the same country.  Can we really say the 2nd place athlete is at the top of his field? There are nearly a dozen athletic events where only two athletes appear to have showed up in the events.  How prestigious can this be? RonSigPi (talk) 00:31, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Now you're just being silly. Exactly how does a three-county competition equate to a "more than half the world" competition? Asia has almost 60% of the world's population, and that is why I consider an all-Asia competition to be significant and giving a presumption of notability if you place second in that area. That a few events only had a small turnout is irrelevant. And we aren't talking about one of those events here, anyway, so stop waving the strawman. The event in question is Sitting volleyball at the 2010 Asian Para Games. ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 00:42, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The fact that Asia is large and contains a large portion of the world's population does not mean that every Asian championship held is notable. Under that logic, every player of the Asian Australian Football Championships would be considered notable.  However, since Australian Football has a relatively small following outside the Oceanic region, we don't give such a presumption just because Asia is big.  Regarding your strawman argument, it cannot be said that the Asian Games are so big that every competitor is notable, yet when that gets questioned focus on sitting volleyball.  As a multi-sport event, the Asian Para Games appear minor and have little coverage.  Athletics, badminton, judo, table tennis, and powerlifting all have events where only two competitors competed.  This is even more concerning considering the popularity of badminton, judo, and table tennis in Asia.  Additionally, in archery for both men and women there were events where only one competitor was there.  These games seem relatively insignificant and do not help persuade that any of its sports, including sitting volleyball, would gain coverage to presume the athletes are notable. RonSigPi (talk) 03:09, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, since you can't seem to stay focused on this topic, I'm not going to bother responding to you anymore. You keep changing your focus, point to other irrelevant things as evidence for this discussion, and so on. Perhaps others will chime in on the discussion (beyond those who already have) so we can get something other than you attempting to steamroll over everyone else. ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 05:07, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * If you genuinely think that the International Paralympic Committee and Japan Para-Volleyball Association aren't idependent to the athlete herself then I don't believe you understand the concept of WP:INDEPENDENT. Two quotes from that, ""Independent" does not imply "even-handedness"; an independent source may hold a strongly positive or negative view of a topic or an idea" and " An interest in a topic is vested where the source holds a financial or legal relationship with the topic". So please explain how the sources aren't independent? - Ba se me nt 12  (T.C) 21:16, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * You cite an essay that is not authoritative and does not help your point - it clearly states that something with a conflict of interest is not indpendents, something true of these associations. WP:GNG, which is a guideline, states "Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it."  The national and international bodies are not independent - see Articles for deletion/Dirngulbai Misech for the treatment of the Oceania Sports Association and Palauan Swimming Association (Dirtlawyer1 articulated this point well for me).  For an article about a Minnesota Vikings player, the Star Tribune is independent while nfl.com and vikings.com are not.  Those sources are not independent. RonSigPi (talk) 00:25, 6 May 2016 (UTC)


 * New sources, many sources can be found in Japanese, For instance see here,here, here and here Sander.v.Ginkel (Talk) 19:29, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Your first source is just a video of what appears to be the event. Anyone can put a video online, that is not coverage.  Also, looking at that video, I see no crowd and no media presence.  Yes, one side is not shown, but does not seem like many are following.  The second is a blog, not an accepted source.  The third and fourth list the athlete's name once - not significant coverage there - and the fourth one appears just to be a roster. I don't think any of these sources are useful. RonSigPi (talk) 00:35, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Errr ... should we be concerned that someone as actively creating new biographical articles as yourself genuinely think that those sources are qualifying sources that meet the GNG?   Ravenswing   01:55, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Just added quickly a few sources, but I can't read Japanese what is written about her. On Google Many sources can be fiund. What about This or This and This. Sander.v.Ginkel (Talk) 19:46, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete I went through the Japanese sources that have been provided, as well as searched on my own, and almost all of them are simply cursory mentions (such as lists of athletes with her name in it) or are blogs that are not RS. They are thus not significant and verifiable coverage. Judging from the title, it looks like there was one article on her in the Mainichi Shinbun, one of the major national papers, but it is now gone or behind a paywall: (a description of the article is here). Even if we include that (which I believe we should), that is not enough to pass WP:GNG. In addition, there has been a debate here whether her medaling in the Asian championships satisfies notability criteria. What seems to have been lost in the debate about "regional" competitions is that the issue here is continental competitions. Note that a number of the notability criteria (WP:NTRACK, WP:NBADMINTON, WP:NBOX, WP:NCYC, or WP:NTRIATHLON) including medals or records at continental games as a criterion. What is not clear is whether this can be extended to all sports, including sitting volleyball. In the end, though, WP:NSPORT is clear that even if we count her continental medal, that does not excuse the requirement that "standalone articles are required to meet the General Notability Guideline" and that the specific criteria are listed only to provide "bright-line guidance to enable editors to determine quickly if a subject is likely to meet the General Notability Guideline". They do not substitute for WP:GNG, which she fails. Michitaro (talk) 14:02, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, &mdash; Music1201  talk  23:11, 12 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.