Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Justin Capră (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Nakon 04:17, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Justin Capră
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 * Queried speedy delete. The refs in Talk:Justin Capră, including designing and making a jetpack, and his Romanian-language page ro:Justin Capra, seem to show enough about him to warrant rediscussing, Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:00, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  15:01, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Technology-related deletion discussions.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  15:01, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  15:02, 22 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete for a number of reasons:
 * The sourcing doesn't justify an article. We have one AP obituary (for whatever reason quoted from various news outlets), one interview in Adevărul, and a bunch of cruft.
 * His achievements don't justify keeping the article, either. As far as I can tell, everything he did aside from the jet pack is fluff. As to the jet pack itself, well, there's actually a book on jet packs from Chicago Review Press, which addresses Capră in a chapter called "origin hoaxes". Quote: "as with his jet pack, there was no evidence shown to prove that any of his unconventional flying machines ever actually got off the ground. Capră eventually gave numerous interviews to newspapers and magazines in Romania and many articles have appeared there about the Romanian inventor of the jet pack.... Capră's claim of inventing the jet pack was widely believed in Romania, though nowhere else". And I think that says it, in a nutshell. He was an amateur inventor, and later a determined self-promoter, who dabbled into something like a jet pack, but didn't actually invent one, but his claims resonated in a country that loves to think it's responsible for various major inventions, and doubly so once he took on the line that "the Americans" stole his idea.
 * The text is so chaotic that WP:DYNAMITE deserves to apply in any case.
 * As an alternative, we might perhaps consider a redirect to Jet_pack, but that too ought to be thoroughly revamped in accordance with reliable claims made in reliable sources, rather than boosterism. - Biruitorul Talk 18:15, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

20:27, 21 January 2015‎ User:Racklever (-60)‎. . (Article has refs so "speedy deletion" removed)
 * Keep This article was approved by user User:Racklever to not be removed because it has refs:

This page should not be deleted because Justin Capra is a legend between Romanian engineers. Some peoples contest the value of his work but the fact that he build outstanding engineering equipment in a very dark age of Communism from Romania means a lot to many people. He must be known to English readers as well. 09:33, 21 January 2015‎ User:94.177.32.154
 * Keep -- Contested deletion --


 * Keep This page cannot be deleted because the reasons:
 * This person has Awards from Geneva Invention Exhibition and has a Presidential Award of Excellence.
 * Reading from the book mentioned by Biruitorul, I found three things:
 * 1. National Geographic published an article in 2011 stating the Capra has been awarded a patent on July 8, 1958.
 * 2. The book "The Great American Jet Pack" is written by a Lawyer, Steve Lehto, who does not have any page on wikipedia. By the title of the book, from the title it starts with the assumption the Jet Pack is "American". Maybe it is mostly American. But to simply ignore all the other people (from outside America) work and steps toward the "polished" Jet Pack, is not the way to go.
 * 3. There are references in the book that the Jet Pack was presented by Justin Capra to the Romanian Academy and US Embassy in 1958, but the presentations didn't catch any or enough attention.
 * The inventions of Justin Capra are presented in Museums in Romania.
 * According to the Wikipedia rules, it has enough sources from respectable and trusted sources (I will only mention the sources not included by Anthony Appleyard copied in the next section.
 * New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/01/20/world/europe/ap-eu-romania-obit-capra.html?_r=0
 * Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/01/20/romanian-who-claimed-invented-world-1st-jetpack-crafted-fuel-efficient-cars/
 * Associated Press: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_ROMANIA_OBIT_CAPRA?SITE=NHPOR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Eminescus (talk) 21:51, 23 January 2015 (UTC) Ref list reformatted:-
 * Contested / Queried speedy delete. The refs (copied below), including designing and making a jetpack, and his Romanian-language page ro:Justin Capra, seem to show enough about him to warrant rediscussing, Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:00, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * "Romanian who claimed he invented world's 1st jetpack dies". Yahoo News. 20 January 2015. Retrieved 20 January 2015.
 * "Romanian who claimed he invented world's first jetpack dies". Canada CTV Television | CTV News. 20 January 2015. Retrieved 20 January 2015.
 * "Justin Capra, Inventor of 784 MPG Car, Dies at 81". GreenOptimistic.com. 20 January 2015. Retrieved 20 January 2015.
 * "Justin Capra Biography". FamousWhy. 20 January 2011. Retrieved 20 January 2015.
 * "Romanian who claimed he invented world's 1st jetpack dies". TheState.com. 20 January 2015. Retrieved 20 January 2015.
 * "Romanian who claimed he invented world's 1st jetpack dies". The Bellingham Herald . 20 January 2015. Retrieved 20
 * "Justin Capra, the mind who could have changed Romania". Adevarul. 23 February 2013. Retrieved 20 January 2015.
 * "Car Built by Romanian Inventor Gets 784 MPG Fuel Efficiency". http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2011/05/19/justin-capra-car/#.VMFi4SvF-c5 . 19 May 2011. Retrieved 20 January 2015.
 * Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:55, 22 January 2015 (UTC)


 * 1) More from the Lehto book: "Romanian National Geographic published an article in 2011 stating that Capra had been awarded a patent on July 8, 1958, but they did not make any claims about whether he ever built or flew the device he patented."
 * 2) That Lehto is an attorney, or that he starts out with certain assumptions (which most authors do, by the way), is not especially relevant. That he has no Wikipedia article is entirely irrelevant. What is relevant is that his book is published by a reputable publisher and has undergone standard editorial review.
 * 3) As Lehto notes, "There is no question that Capra built two jet-pack-like devices". So that's not at issue. But not every tinkerer is notable, and as I've indicated, what we have about him at jet pack is more than ample.
 * 4) With all due respect, being the subject of an exhibit at the Prahova County Natural Sciences Museum does not advance a claim of independent notability.
 * 5) Please note that the article that begins "A Romanian inventor who claimed he beat the Americans to make the world's first jetpack" is an AP report, reproduced verbatim in various press outlets. It's dishonest to claim that constitutes multiple sources. - Biruitorul Talk 01:42, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
 * Keep the person is obviously notable. Dman41689 (talk) 22:30, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Have a look at WP:ITSNOTABLE. Simply asserting that something or someone is notable does not make it so. - Biruitorul Talk 01:42, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 12:35, 2 February 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
 * Keep. The recent editors have found enough reliable sources to meet WP:SECONDARY. Fiachra10003 (talk) 05:05, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:DYNAMITE. While a few (credulous) RS seem to exist (the bulk of the references are clones), the article is an irredeemable mass of hoax/fringe nonsense at best and loony old-time communist propaganda at worst. There's no evidence this person made anything. Pax 01:02, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mr. Guye (talk) 02:31, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep I don't care a bit if Capră is a hoaxer or not, FYI WP is full of articles about hoaxs and hoaxers, eg take a look at categories Impostors and Hoaxes in science. The subject has obviously received multiple reliable coverage, and valid sourcing includes the already cited chapter in the Steve Lehto's book The Great American Jet Pack: The Quest for the Ultimate Individual Lift Device which not just rebuts Capră's claims but is also itself a significant  secondary  reliable source about the subject. WP:UGLY is not a reason for deletion, and I suggest the editors who complain about the current state of the article to edit the article and to improve it as they see fit, they're welcome. Cavarrone  07:49, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.