Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/KPTT Agricultural Training Center


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. The discussion is starting to go round in circles, and no definitive decision of what to do with the article has been agreed on. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  11:21, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

KPTT Agricultural Training Center

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Fails WP:GNG The Banner talk 18:54, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. North America1000 19:04, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. North America1000 19:04, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Indonesia-related deletion discussions. North America1000 19:04, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. North America1000 19:04, 29 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep. Notable as a school. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 20:18, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. Notable as a school. Jzsj (talk) 20:28, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete References are far too minor, tangential and/or unrelated to support notability. For example the claim that they network with other schools (can we be more generic?) is suported by this wholly unrelated source about a Jesuit school in Chicago. 96.127.242.226 (talk) 00:48, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 14:52, 31 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete-Fucking Jesuit-spam coupled with dubious motives and all-around incompetency. We need non-independent sources covering the subject in a significant manner per our guideline and my own searches to extract them. If I had seen this, I would have tagged for G11.I also see that the clique of school-inclusionists has now expanded it's horizon of activities to encompass anything and everything that provides some education/vocational training. &#x222F; WBG converse 09:20, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * You are completely mistaken about my motives in creating these articles. I was spurred on by the reviewers who rapidly approved these articles without even a tag! It behooves Wikipedia to get its act together and close the gap between reviewers and those who would apply the most rigid criteria to schools articles such as this, where there's a credible argument for inclusion. We retain most secondary and tertiary schools, which this is. Jzsj (talk) 10:37, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * No body with some non-advertising motives write gems like The benefit of poorer, small farmers is integral to its vision.If it were not for your religious bindings (or something like that, as told by ), you would have been long-blocked as someone indulging in ADVERT/UPE. &#x222F; WBG</b> converse 10:55, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Please give the location of what you think Tony Ballioni said. Also I can only hope that someone who abhors rash judgments will come forward to review schools articles like this. Jzsj (talk) 11:04, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Check this t/p thread. &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 11:17, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * What I see there is your "impression" deleted and TB defending the fact that I am not obliged to follow the directive of any superior in my work in Wikipedia. The fact is, no Jesuit superiors have ever expressed to me the least bit of interest in my Wikipedia work. It's something I do because of the sparsity of opportunities to help out in state prisons, which Is the (volunteer) work to which they have assigned me. Jzsj (talk) 11:51, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Tb didn't say anything like that except that COiI is difficult to establish (where we disagree).And, spamming Wikipedia in lieu of working in prisons (or whatever that stuff is)? I will better leave this discussion........ &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 12:07, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * WBG's comment should be given minimal weight per WP:ADHOM. — BillHPike (talk, contribs) 12:13, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * In case you have missed the second line......... &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 13:36, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment Let's discuss discuss edit's, not editors. — BillHPike (talk, contribs) 12:10, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Or rather sources supporting and establishing the notability of the subject.... &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 13:38, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep -- An agricultural college producing 1000 graduates from a one-year course is likely to be notable, rather more so than many of the secondary schools that we habitually keep. It would however be nice if the data were rather more up to date.  Much education is provided by Christian missionaries and churches of many denominations: applying foul language here to Jesuits in not appropriate, whatever the editor's views.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:11, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Not a thousand per year but 1116 in 44 years. An average of a bit more than 25 per year... <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 17:32, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The graduation rate claims are also unsourced: the claims in the article for numbers of graduates are not suported, or even mentioned, in the given sources.(NB I am the first IP delete voter above. Router reset.)96.127.244.201 (talk) 07:38, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Could someone please remove the "not in citation needed" tag at the end and make this correction: the stats are in the third citation, here. Jzsj (talk) 13:19, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 02:37, 5 August 2018 (UTC) <div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Possible improvements and additions to refs: citation 4 is more properly not "Google translate" but here, if someone would be so kind as to make this replacement. Also, please see "Could someone please" just above. And these other sources might be considered: ; and: Membangun karakter petani organik sukses dalam era globalisasi (in Indonesian). Kanisius. 2005. Pp. 146-147. ISBN 9789792112382.; and for reference 1 add P. 124. at; and here; and here; and here. Thanks. Jzsj (talk) 13:25, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Why do you not try to give independent, reliable sources? Weblogs are not regarded to be reliable sources and most other sources given are related to the subject/Jesuits. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 13:55, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * We do the best we can with poor schools in underdeveloped areas. Our judgment of the independence of various sources likely varies from yours: the main point here is the veracity of the source, and there's much more reason to believe than to disbelieve this assemblage of sources here. Jzsj (talk) 14:01, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:CIR? WP:COI? <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 14:20, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Is suggesting and repeatedly soliciting edits to an article on a school, as above, not a violation of Jzsj's topic ban? (I am the IP editor above, router keeps resetting)198.58.175.190 (talk) 20:17, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
 * is invoking the creator exception for the purposes of the AFD; can not otherwise discuss the topic.  AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 20:04, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete. Sources (provided and available) don't meet WP:GNG or WP:ORG, since they are either unreliable sources (blogs) or insignificant mentions. I'm not entertaining the WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES argument here because the article is clearly promotional in tone. —  Newslinger  talk   03:31, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
 * If you judge the article promotional in tone, isn't the solution to remove the promotional tone, of a school that clearly exists and does good work, rather than to delete it? Jzsj (talk) 08:14, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
 * That depends on how promotional it is. If it can be rescued and simplified, then go for it, but if the extensive history of it is highly promotional, then WP:TNT it.  AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 17:28, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The article isn't just promotional in tone: it also fails the sourcing requirements. WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES has a notice right underneath it summarizing a 2017 RfC, saying that WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES shouldn't be used in deletion discussions. Additionally, the article doesn't provide any evidence that the school is accredited. —  Newslinger  talk   16:09, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 19:21, 13 August 2018 (UTC) <div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Alpha3031 (t • c) 04:55, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete - promotional tone and non-notable. - Scarpy (talk) 20:16, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep has been since 1965 it does appear to be notable agricultural institute.


 * Ensiklopedi populer tentang gereja Katolik di Indonesia Pg 229
 * Sustainable Agriculture in Asia: Directory of organizations in Asia Pg 32
 * Membangun karakter petani organik sukses dalam era globalisasi pg 147 Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 21:56, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I can't verify the contents of the first book, since the Google Books preview for this particular book is extremely limited, but I don't think it's an independent source because the author (Adolf Heuken) is a Catholic priest . The second third book only offers passing mentions of the school, and is not independent because the publisher is Kanisius Media, a Jesuit organization. The third second book appears to contain a short directory listing that wouldn't count as significant coverage in WP:ORGDEPTH. —  Newslinger  talk   12:22, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * For context, please note that the school has Jesuit and Catholic affiliations, according to the article. —  Newslinger  talk   12:26, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Please note that the author of the first book, id:Adolf Heuken, is also a notable and award-winning author in Indonesia, of German origin. The fact that he is a Jesuit and Catholic does not of itself vitiate his work. Jzsj (talk) 12:36, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * For avoidance of doubt, I considered the source not independent because Hekuen is a priest (the church equivalent of a company employee), not because he is Catholic. I would make the same classification for a publication written by a person working for a company closely affiliated with another article subject. —  Newslinger  talk   13:06, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The Catholic church is not like a company with a single organizational leader and unified finance. While the pope and council of bishops oversee religious, doctrinal issues, such organizations as this in the church are in no wise subject to the pope or bishops but are independently registered entities in all matters of ownership and leadership. And Catholics have (and exhibit) the freedom to hold their own opinions along the whole socio-economic spectrum. Jzsj (talk) 13:45, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the correction. I've struck out the sections of my comments regarding the independence of the first book. However, even after typing the available text into a translator, I still don't think these sources offer significant coverage of the school. —  Newslinger  talk   09:20, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The content of the third book doesn't meet WP:ORGDEPTH because the relevant chapter, "Teknis Pengelolaan Pertanian Organik" ("Technical Management of Organic Farming") is not about the school itself. The entire coverage translates to:
 * Salatiga Farmers' Agriculture Course (KPTT), as an educational institution, has worked for 40 years and has educated more than 3,000 peasant cadres from various regions in Indonesia. During his 40 years of work, the KPTT Salatiga is already doing a lot of experiments and research on how a farmer should live. The world development of the XXI century (the era of globalization) requires all parties not enough to be able to live, but need to participate in changing the direction of the development of the agricultural world towards the will of the Creator. In this context, the age of KTPP which is 40 years old can be a valuable provision and has a great opportunity to prepare more reliable "pioneers of farmers" in the future. In this paper we will discuss how to manage "Organic Farming" which includes economic aspects (production and marketing), ecological aspects (environment), and moral aspects (human attitudes).
 * The school's name is mentioned several more times in other pages, but only as passing mentions in the biographies of its alumni and affiliates. (e.g. "From 1972 until now he taught at the Farmer Garden Agriculture Course (KPPT) Salatiga.") —  Newslinger  talk   10:12, 28 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep. Adequate sourcing, The argument about non-independent sourcing is nonsense. A source from the same institution is nonindependent, a source from someone else in the RC church is independent enough. Such arguments have indeed been used in the past to avoid covering notable religious topics of all sorts, but I thought we had recognized the absurdity of such an interpretation.  Otherwise, we;d be saying we could use no sources from the LC or Smithsonian  for a US government topic. .  DGG ( talk ) 05:52, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * And on what policy or guideline is your opinion based? <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 10:22, 28 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.