Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Karate at the 2001 Mediterranean Games


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. The problem here seems to be that there is no wider policy, guidelines or precedent regarding individual sports at a non-Olympic sporting event. Although some relevant policies about notability and routine coverage have been forwarded, it is very difficult to see what the consensus through the lens of Wikipedia policy would be where no sufficient policy exists. As there are a range of well-founded arguments on both sides, this has to be closed as no consensus. I would strongly encouraged those involved to begin a wider discussion regarding this kind of article: perhaps a request for comment about whether individual sports at specific non-Olympic sporting events should be considered notable. That would help prevent future confusion about this kind of article. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 16:55, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Karate at the 2001 Mediterranean Games

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  Stats )

This article gives no indication of notability. There is no text, no independent sources, and the article consists solely of listing the medal winners. It's simply routine sports reporting. Papaursa (talk) 23:30, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Papaursa (talk) 23:30, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete Nothing shows notability, the article fails WP:ROUTINE, and there's no significant independent coverage of this event. Mdtemp (talk) 16:06, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Courcelles 04:18, 23 July 2012 (UTC)




 * Comment Not sure what to do here. There are several sport entries for the Mediterranean Games with some of the Sports (ie.  Athletics at the Mediterranean Games) and even further articles for some of the years (ie. Athletics at the 1967 Mediterranean Games).  A similar thing was attempted for Karate but there are several years with no intermediate article.  Either we do an AfD for all the year Karate articles or write the Karate at the Mediterranean Games to tie it all together.Peter Rehse (talk) 13:29, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge. I like Peter Rehse's proposal. The articles in Category:Karate at the Mediterranean Games are short enough that they can be merged into one Karate at the Mediterranean Games article. The same should be done for other Mediterranean Games events, like gymnastics and handball.--SGCM (talk)  20:17, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * None of the articles have any independent sources (the 2005 and 2009 ones have no sources at all) and the article consists entirely of the results--a clear violation of WP:ROUTINE. I'd say all of the articles should be deleted.  Don't forget Karate at the 2009 Mediterranean Games – Men's Kumite Over 84 Kg and Karate at the 2009 Mediterranean Games – Women's Kumite Under 50 Kg which contain only the results of every match in that division--more routine sports reporting. Papaursa (talk) 21:20, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Coverage of individual games is considered WP:ROUTINE, but general sport events articles (like Karate at the Mediterranean Games) must meet WP:SPORTSEVENT criteria. I agree with your concerns over the absence of prose, but I think that, if cleaned up, expanded, sourced, and merged, the articles should meet the WP:NSPORT guideline.--SGCM (talk)  22:36, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Going through Category:Multi-sport events, there seems to be hundreds of articles with similar problems. Most Olympic and Paralympic event articles, which are given special coverage on WP:NSPORT, are nothing more than stats directories (see Diving at the 2008 Summer Olympics, Judo at the 2008 Summer Olympics or Field hockey at the 1996 Summer Olympics – Men's tournament). This issue deserves a wider discussion. May I suggest bringing it up at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sports?--SGCM (talk)  22:49, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Go ahead. I don't object to the individual articles on Olympic events since they're a breed apart--just like athletes are considered notable just for participating at the Olympics.  However, I don't feel the same way about the myriad lesser events (like Games of the Small States of Europe). Papaursa (talk) 23:09, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Based on the above discussion I am bundling the following into the AfD discussion. As to the wider issue of similar articles for other Sports it should be brought up at at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sports but I am at a loss how to phrase the question.Peter Rehse (talk) 23:41, 23 July 2012 (UTC) :   :    :    :
 * Done. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sports.--SGCM (talk)  00:01, 24 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Question: Why aren't Basketball at the 2001 Mediterranean Games and other events being bundled into this AfD? --LauraHale (talk) 00:04, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I should let Peter answer that, but I'd say it's better to keep the discussion focused on the original topic (karate at these games). These articles also all have a similar lack of sources and text, and I don't know if that can be said for all individual event articles at the Med. games.  Depending on how the discussion at WT:Sports goes, a broader AfD can be done later. Papaursa (talk) 00:44, 24 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep: Response from Papaursa makes this seem like WP:POINT of challenging notability related to all martial arts related articles as willing to bundle all martial arts but unwilling to bundle other sport specific articles. All of the articles about this particular competition have similar issues.  Beyond that, nothing indicates Papaursa has done research to prove all the coverage is routine and doesn't pass WP:GNG.   Sources do exist: .  What sort of sources exist in Arabic? --LauraHale (talk) 00:48, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This is not a pointy argument, but rather an attempt to avoid lumping all sports for all Mediterranean games into a single AfD discussion because I think that's too many articles (and too varied ones) for one discussion. Concerning the sources you list--one doesn't even mention the topic, one is a one sentence mention about a competitor, and one is a passing mention that Egypt won medals in karate.  None of those show the significant coverage required for notability.  Pointing out that other articles also have problems does not make these articles notable.  I have not advocated removal of the articles on the Mediteranean games in general. Papaursa (talk) 04:26, 24 July 2012 (UTC)


 *  A few comments Those sources are for the Mediterranean Games in particular and Karate in passing. I don't think anyone is proposing a deletion of the Mediterranean Games and I don't think anyone would object the creation of Karate at the Mediterranean Games.  The lack of the latter article not only isolates those bundled above (which makes them a special case) but there are no sources for those individual events.  They just can not stand alone.
 * There is an ongoing effort to clean up Martial Arts related articles which is why these articles came up on Papaursa's radar and why for instance I jumped in. I don't think bringing them to AfD could be considered WP:POINT since it is being brought to discussion and not being force or disruptive.  Further, the argument that we must now bundle all instances could potentially create a massive list if taken to extreme.    Far better to take a small related group to completion and expand later if consensus suggests that is the best route.Peter Rehse (talk) 01:29, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There is an ongoing effort to clean up Martial Arts related articles which is why these articles came up on Papaursa's radar and why for instance I jumped in. I don't think bringing them to AfD could be considered WP:POINT since it is being brought to discussion and not being force or disruptive.  Further, the argument that we must now bundle all instances could potentially create a massive list if taken to extreme.    Far better to take a small related group to completion and expand later if consensus suggests that is the best route.Peter Rehse (talk) 01:29, 24 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep/merge The main purpose of these sub-articles for smaller competitions is to provide summaries of the events without having to excessively burden the main games page. These types of sub-article are vaguely approved of in Summary style and questions of their independent notability are brushed over to maintain a format more desirable than games pages reaching 250kb. Some even reach good article status. Notability (sports) exists because many don't believe in the general notability guideline alone. These articles are desired and valued and unless you want to force thousands of good editors out of the project for technical reasons, then it a situation worth respecting. The various Olympic articles are testament to this. One can point to various guidelines that disapprove of such inclusions, but the unspoken consensus is to allow them if they are on useful enough topics and well written.
 * This brings me to my second point. This page is not done well at all and contains no prose. By coincidence or design, this type of work attracts mostly non-native speakers who do not have the ability, interest, or confidence, to provide real English prose. Hence we get a few of these articles. They can be turned into something of value with a bit of effort (Athletics at the 2005 Jeux de la Francophonie for example). In their current form, the Med Games Karate articles do not reach that level.
 * First, I say that the 2001 Karate page should be improved or bear a merge into both 2001 Mediterranean Games (in a results section) and Karate at the Mediterranean Games. Secondly, I suggest that the 2009 Karate weight class articles be merged into the main 2009 Karate page (when most of the participants in a weight class are not notable, then it's safe to assume that the competition itself isn't either). Thirdly, if improved, referenced and written well, these international Karate competition should make for acceptable stand-alone articles. SFB 20:01, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a very big "if"--you're saying all it needs is references and prose, but isn't that why it's up for AfD? Mdtemp (talk) 15:06, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't really understand your question. That's quite a circular argument you're making. SFB 18:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I think Mdtemp is commenting on your statement that the articles would be fine if they were rewritten, sourced, and showed notability. His point, I think, is that the articles were nominated for deletion because they lack all of those things. Jakejr (talk) 15:14, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 *  Another comment A page cascade in itself is not a bad way of arranging things. Looks like the original attempt was to link everything together with Categories rather than internal links.  If they were linked properly it is no different that many of the Lists we see and references to establish notability don't necessarily have to go all they way down.  The question really is how far down do we go before it becomes non-notable fill - that becomes a case by case debate.  For these articles I think the two weight class articles are too far.Peter Rehse (talk) 04:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The weight class articles clearly need to go. As far as making a "Karate at the Mediterranean Games" article goes, merely combining unsourced articles doesn't make them notable or sourced. Mdtemp (talk) 15:06, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete all These articles are not reliably sourced and are nothing but sports results. There's no indication of notability and they lack good sources. Jakejr (talk) 15:14, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: Instead of deleting altogether, why not merge (together with categories on other off-year multi-event championships) into an Article on Off-year championships and make a category of daughter Articles around that? That could at least be notable as a larger topic. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:01, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What is this a proposal for Willstro? Merging into 2001 in Karate? The Years in X articles seem to have worked out well for a number of other sports, and karate is probably another that could join them. SFB 17:00, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Sure, that works. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 06:56, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete as failing notability. --Nouniquenames (talk) 16:38, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Bushranger One ping only 23:04, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 23:44, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Merge all to something like Karate at the Mediterranean Games. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛  Talk Email 12:17, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * As user Mdtemp pointed out above--"combining unsourced articles doesn't make them notable or sourced." There's nothing that shows these events are notable or have significant independent coverage. Jakejr (talk) 21:02, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.