Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Karen Ashley


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Weather Underground. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  14:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Karen Ashley

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

This may be a BLP. It is referenced to FBI investigation reports of J. Edgar Hoover era, which are of dubious reliability and do not establish notability. My search for reliable sources verify her involvement in SDS and the Weathermen, but they are trivial passing mentions. I was unable to find any significant coverage of her as a person rather than a name on a list. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  05:08, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  ~ Amkgp  💬  15:32, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions.  ~ Amkgp  💬  15:32, 4 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep. She was one of the core group. The article is not based directly on thwe fbi reportss. It is, rather, based on the secondary sources, which are reliable and appropriate references--and a good deal else has been written about the SDS that can be added. To be sure the primary sources are  listed also, but all historical research is ultimately based upon primary sources We use them not directly but as they were interpreted secondary sources writing about the period and the people. It is the secondary sources who do the interpretation and we report their interpretation. And, as with all historical topics we do include quotations from primary sources for readers to interpret. Fortunately the FBI is not the only source for this subject.  DGG ( talk ) 22:29, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , I will be happy to withdraw my nomination if you can identify even two independent, reliable sources that devote significant coverage to Karen Ashley as a person instead of a name on a list. I just checked my physical copy of "SDS" by Kirkpatrick Sale, which is a major 752 page book about the organization. Ashley is mentioned four times, three of which are mentions in foonotes. All four mentions are passing mentions in the context of lists of people that do not devote significant coverage to Ashley. Maybe significant coverage exists somewhere but I have not been able to find it so far. Cullen328   Let's discuss it  02:04, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I just did an online search of "Outlaws of America: The Weather Underground and the Politics of Solidarity" a 2006 book by Dan Berger. Ashley is mentioned in passing three times in footnotes, in the form of "Ashley, et al" because she was alphabetically the first of many who signed the Weatherman manifesto. Not a single word about who she was as a person. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  02:13, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * it will be quite difficult to check at this time, unfortunately, as will be many other things from this period that still depend upon physical libraries. I'll see what I can find.  (And I do recognize the possible alphabetic effect.)  DGG ( talk ) 04:24, 5 August 2020 (UTC).
 * I do appreciate your response,, and will be happy to see the article kept if it can be referenced properly. But I am very uncomfortable with a likely BLP referenced primarily to FBI investigations of that era. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  05:32, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * that's where we continue to disagree--the only thing really sourced only to the fbi is the fingerprint.  DGG ( talk ) 05:40, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * All I am asking you to do,, is to point to references to reliable, independent sources that devote significant coverage to this person. Just link those sources here, and I will both add them to the article, summarize them, and withdraw this AfD nomination. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328   Let's discuss it  06:50, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 12:50, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 12:50, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * FWIW, this has biographical information.--User:Namiba 12:54, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete Wikipedia is not supposed to be based on primary sourcing, FBI reports are primary sourcing, and when you are using that as your actual sources it clearly is an article based on primary sourcing.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:32, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 01:58, 12 August 2020 (UTC) <div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   17:00, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep I agree given the importance of the subject this page should be kept. Balle010 (talk) 18:03, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Support DGG. Priyanjali singh (talk) 13:23, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete and the two keep !votes previously to mine^^^ should be discounted: one is an argument to avoid in deletion discussions, while the other is based on supporting another editor who (no offence) asserts that there are sources, but has been unable to present any in over three weeks (incidentally, I'm also finding it hard to swallow that the only thing really sourced only to the fbi is the fingerprint, when literally six out of seven references are to the somewhat obviously-titled "FBI Surveillance Files"...). Ultimately, this is still a BLP and as such it must be sourced to the highest quality third-party, independent reliable sources per WP:BLPSOURCES. Also fails WP:ANYBIO and BASIC for similar reasons. ——  Serial  16:59, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment somewhat on a lark, and partly because this is an interesting discussion, I decided to see if I could find anything. There is absolutely nothing in newspapers.com (a little surprising) or Google News (not surprising at all).  At Google Books I found casual mentions at, , and .  At least three sources use what appears to be the same quote regarding the topic , , , but I can't see past the snippet provided in the preview.  The source with the most mentions is , which by all appearances is because of the alphabetical effect mentioned earlier.  It is somewhat telling that  mentions her only once, and as author of the oft-mentioned publication with multiple authors, while  and  make no mention of the topic whatsoever.   78.26  (spin me / revolutions) 15:57, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Weather Underground, which mentions the subject. BD2412  T 02:48, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Weather Underground. I don't see independent notability 's analysis is very good, it largely confirmed the results of my own search. Eddie891 Talk Work 13:05, 2 September 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.