Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kaspar Anton Karl van Beethoven


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 01:30, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Kaspar Anton Karl van Beethoven

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I deprodded both and brought them here (early in the process) because while notability isn't inherited, I imagine some people might object to these being deleted. There are sources but it's a question of the historical context which I'm not well qualified to answer in this case.

I also deprodded/nominated Johanna van Beethoven

Please comment for each individual separately Shadowjams (talk) 20:12, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete To repeat my reason for proposing deletion, this individual's only apparent notability is his relationship with Ludwig van Beethoven, which is insufficient per WP:NOTINHERITED. I strongly suspect all that really needs to be said about him can be said in his brother's article. This is in contrast to e.g. Johann van Beethoven, who held a somewhat notable position in his own right, even though he is probably best known for being Ludwig's father.  Magic ♪piano 21:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete - No personal notability established. He also appears to be his own father according to his wife's entry... --Jubilee♫ clipman  22:45, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Note DGG and I have corrected the links at Johanna van Beethoven: Karl van Beethoven is in fact a redirect to Kaspar Anton Karl van Beethoven, hence he appeared to father himself... --Jubilee♫ clipman 02:28, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete - per Magicpiano. -- Klein zach  22:57, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete I looked for sources to rescue this and couldn't find sufficient information to meet WP:N; although there was a nice summary of him in The Family van Beethoven, an article written by Donald MacArdle for the Musical Quarterly. Basically, he lived most of his life in the shadow of Ludwig. As a musician he published only about three dances, and after that he took on a nonnotable clerical position. A mention of him in Ludwig's article would be sufficient, and an article on the Beethoven family itself may be warranted, but not a stand-alone article.  Them From  Space  22:59, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - I'm a little uncomfortable with this rational for the reason below. Shadowjams (talk) 00:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment - I want to point out that notability is about the individual's notability, not whether or not the individual did anything notable. It's a subtle distinction, but it gets glossed over. Also, just because there are sources that mention their subject that doesn't mean they are in fact notable. On the other hand, there is probably a lot written on the subject so if someone finds something that does indicate notability, I'll keep an open mind. Shadowjams (talk) 00:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep both  Fpr Kaspar: If he is  is discussed significantly in the books on LVB, it are notable enough for an article. (this applies only to the most famous people, and only in those cases where we know enough to be able to write an article)  The reason why he is so discussed, as an individual, and the  thr reason why he is notable, is that the influence of the immediate family on the most important political and artistic figures is important. He was also  a significant musician in his own right, and in that capacity, was LVB's first teacher, and that also is notable.  (again, not that this applies except to the   most famous people).     (Btw, Kaspar and his son were both called Karl, which seems to have led to some confusion) For Johanna, there is a special reason: the hypothesis that she was Ludwig van Beethoven's mistress--she plays that role  in the film Immortal Beloved--see the article there (I had to add some information, because, as typical for Wikipedia plot sections, the material given was only a teaser, that goes to considerable pains not to disclose the ending.)  The article here on the film indicates briefly why there might be some possibility of it, it also indicates that the possibility is discussed in detail and refuted in Gail S. Altman's book, Gail S. Beethoven: A Man of His Word - Undisclosed Evidence for his Immortal Beloved, Anubian Press 1996; ISBN 1-888071-01-X. This book necessarily gives a considerable treatment of her; she should also be discussed in the reviews of the film.  I will try to add some more references,      DGG ( talk ) 16:13, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * My opinion, based on reading a few books about LvB, is that Kaspar Karl, while obviously having some influence in LvB's life, is not sufficiently important to merit his own article (in contrast to, say, Anton Schindler, who, in addition to being influential, wrote a biography of LvB, tampered with the historical record, and held music director positions). It's also not clear to me that all of the candidates for Immortal Beloved are notable enough to merit their own articles -- that subject should be addressed in an article dedicated to the topic (currently poorly covered in WP).  (Also note that links to Johanna Reiss at Immortal Beloved (film) go to a different (incorrect) page.)  Magic ♪piano 18:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * of course he is not as important at Schindler; but I do not see what that has to do with it. For a figure like LvB, probably all the significant people in his life are notable because as with all artists, they affect his work. The rule is notable, not "the most notable ".   DGG ( talk ) 20:25, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * How is Kaspar one of the most famous people in history? Few people other than Beethoven scholars and university graduates will have heard of him.  Perhaps you could redraft the article to establish personal Notability?  --Jubilee♫ clipman  05:27, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Could we perhaps create an article like Family of Ludwig van Beethoven? Even if his family members didn't do much of significance, I'm sure many people would like to learn something about them, and I'm sure at least a decent amount of information is available on them. I've always felt that NOTINHERITED should be relaxed when dealing with the close relations of top-tier historical figures. Zagalejo^^^ 21:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * As I stated above, I think this would be a welcome article, and an appropriate place to redirect the individual personalities.  Them From  Space  23:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that's an excellent compromise, so long as there is enough material to get a skeleton framework started so that others can build on it easily. These two articles could go there almost as is to begin, but some basic listing of other family members would be good too. Shadowjams (talk) 06:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That might work better actually, but we might need to rearrange the order of the title to help searches: Ludwig van Beethoven's Family --Jubilee♫ clipman  05:31, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * How about Beethoven family as per Mozart family? Much simpler than either of our suggestions. --Jubilee♫ clipman  01:39, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

 I have relisted because the discussion shifted markedly from delete towards merger, with a number of the earlier ccommentors appearing to change positions. Please clarify your current positions. Thanks, Xymmax So let it be written   So let it be done  22:40, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Propose closing this AfD and, if necessary, reopening in a month - The reason being that the article does not in its present state establish any personal notability for Kaspar. I suggest we give editors time to expand the article to establish his notability and add reliable secondary sources to verify the information.  --Jubilee♫ clipman  01:35, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.

cmy opinion remains as keep, and that he is sufficiently notable in his own right for a separate article.  DGG ( talk ) 23:26, 16 December 2009 (UTC).
 * Merge into Fam of LvB Gosox5555 (talk) 23:04, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - Article needs work to establish notability, but I suspect that can be achieved by experienced editors. Addendum: If notability cannot be established then merge into Beethoven family.   --Jubilee♫ clipman  00:07, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Merge into Beethoven family.  Magic ♪piano 00:39, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep as per DGG. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:55, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep it as it is for now. Maybe consider merging to a Beethoven family page in the future, but such a decision can be decided outside of AFD. Zagalejo^^^ 05:32, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Merge into Beethoven family with a coherent and complete review of LvB's relationship with his family.MaynardClark (talk) 17:46, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.