Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Katie Beth Hall


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Guerillero Parlez Moi 10:36, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Katie Beth Hall

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

This actress does not seem to pass WP:GNG, mostly regarding WP:SIGCOV. The creator of the article removed the Notability tag from a couple editors (including myself), so I thought it'd be worth gaining a consensus one way or the other. Cerebral726 (talk) 17:59, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers, Women, Television,  and Theatre. Cerebral726 (talk) 17:59, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:04, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep A lead role on an HBO Max TV show (that's in the Warner vault now because of Discovery) and a Disney+ film covers WP:NACTOR to me.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 18:24, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * My concern was that in neither of those was she the lead: While she is in all ten episodes of the HBO show (Head of the Class (2021 TV series)), in the Disney+ film (Home Sweet Home Alone), her role seems not to be a "significant" role from my reading of the plot summary. Combined with a lack of real WP:SIGCOV, I wasn't sure that Notability was proved with basically one major role. Cerebral726 (talk) 18:37, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * "Not being sure" is not a good reason to nominate an article for deletion. You should be pretty sure before you nominate things for deletion. There are plenty of articles on Wikipedia that are vanity articles or articles created for a flash in the pan.  This isn't one of them.  No one has even mentioned her 6 episodes on Happy. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:15, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I was leaving an opening for humility and acknowledging my ability to be wrong with "not sure". If you like, I "felt confident" that the lack of in depth sourcing was not enough to meet WP:GNG, and that her roles were not major enough to counteract that dearth of SIGCOV. Cerebral726 (talk) 16:52, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The notability test for actors doesn't hinge on the having of roles, it hinges on the depth and quality of reliable source coverage about her and her performances that can be shown to exist in WP:GNG-worthy third party media. Bearcat (talk) 21:38, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 21:14, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep per the fact that she has multiple notable roles on both the stage and in film/television. This is just deletionist silliness and needs to stop. KevinHallward's Ghost (Let's talk) 20:36, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete they all appear to be bit parts, not seeing ACTOR. Oaktree b (talk) 20:38, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. I'd say that the Variety and Rolling Stone articles are Sig coverage.  She also appeared in Bull, which the article doesn't mention.  Her stage role was a leading role, and she appeared in it at the Mitzi Newhouse Theater, which is a major venue.  Based also on her recent TV roles, I agree that she is already notable. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:09, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The article used to mention that role. One of the people trying to delete the article removed it from the article. KevinHallward's Ghost (Let's talk) 13:07, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I wanted to make sure I didn't accidentally remove any significant roles during my copy edits, and I couldn't find any revision where Bull was mentioned or removed. It seems maybe it was never mentioned before (though I could've missed it!), so I added in her appearance on an episode of that show. Cerebral726 (talk) 13:27, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Head of the Class (2021 TV series), which is her only significant role. - the Home Sweet Home Alone role is a minor part.  The Rolling Stone piece "significant coverage" consists, in its entirety of, "young Kim (still played by Katie Beth Hall, with her hair pulled partially back, but not yet in the full power- ponytail of adult Kim)".  The Variety piece is a nice one.  But the only coverage which could be considered more than a trivial mention. Onel 5969  TT me 21:22, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * NOTE: Those advocating for deletion have been denigrating Hall's role in Home Sweet Home Alone as some kind of bit part akin to "kid in the background" or something. So I just watched the film and noted her lines and screentime. Depending on how you figure it, she has 20+ lines of dialogue and 10+ minutes of dedicated screentime in the film. Her character is an important supporting character in the film and not some bit part. KevinHallward's Ghost (Let's talk) 16:51, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't call 10 minutes of total dialogue an an hour and a half movie as significant, it's about 10%. Oaktree b (talk) 22:27, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I would call it a significant supporting role. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:18, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, the inclusion test for actors does not hinge on the having of roles per se. The "significance" of a role is not measured by arguing about how much screen time she did or didn't have, or how many lines of dialogue she did or didn't have — it's measured by the amount of WP:GNG-worthy media coverage that her performance did or didn't generate in reliable sources. A person can be the top billed star of a movie and still not pass NACTOR if the film itself doesn't pass NFILM, because an actor isn't notable if reliable sources didn't write about the film or the actor's performance in it — because it's not the amount of screen time the person did or didn't have that distinguishes an NACTOR-passing role from an NACTOR-failing role, it's the amount of media coverage that the person's performance did or didn't receive. Bearcat (talk) 13:56, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:49, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Head of the Class (2021 TV series) as an AtD. I see one IS RS with SIGCOV (1.  Lemon, Brendan (December 10, 2018). "Katie Beth Hall: Teen Actor". Lincoln Center Theater. Retrieved April 8, 2023) The rest of the sources and BEFORE showed promo, mentions, nothing that meets IS RS with SIGCOV for a BLP. WP:BLP states "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources"'; BLPs need IS RS with SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth for both content and notability per well known core policy (WP:V and WP:BLP) and guidelines (WP:BIO and WP:IS, WP:RS, WP:SIGCOV).  // Timothy :: talk  01:49, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The Mitzi E. Newhouse Theatre is part of the Lincoln Center Theater (see e.g. Playbill, 2018), so the 2018 "Katie Beth Hall: Teen Actor" Lincoln Center Theater source does not appear to be independent. Beccaynr (talk) 17:57, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Coverage in Variety — |"‘Head of the Class’ Reboot at HBO Max Casts Katie Beth Hall," — plus Timothy's items above seems to get us over the Notability threshold. Carrite (talk) 16:28, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment – Hall's role in Better Call Saul was also "significant" (see WP:ENT) and attracted significant coverage; a few more sources have been added to the article, and I think it should be re-assessed as a "start" article now. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:53, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - per the fact that they have different roles in various television series. Just because they aren't a "big name" actor, that doesn't mean that they don't deserve a page. Justwatchmee (talk) 23:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete - it appears WP:TOOSOON based on available sources to support WP:NACTOR or WP:BASIC notability. A 2021 Hollywood Reporter review of the first three episodes of Head of the Class (2021 TV series) mentions "Eventually the group is joined by the seemingly more popular Sarah (Katie Beth Hall), daughter of the school’s terrifying principal", and "Escalona and the expertly snarky Hall — Young Kim Wexler from Better Call Saul — can sell any punchline, however broad" but otherwise states, "the show is probably more likely to offer select memorable elements — Gomez and Escalona, particularly — than to be uniformly memorable." Hall is not listed as having a starring role in a 2021 AV Club review, although she is mentioned ("by the second episode, viewers are introduced to Sarah (Katie Beth Hall), a.k.a. Principal Maris’ daughter and a possible love interest for one of the other students.") The Bleeding Cool review in the article also does not present her as a lead character. The Variety announcement noted above seems promotional and less supportive of notability in light of the reviews and how the show was cancelled after one season. As to her other work, a role in two episodes of Better Call Saul seems demonstrably not significant, and more so based on the limited secondary coverage - the sources in the article are the Den of Geek blog, the Slashfilm blog, and ComingSoon.net website. Reviews of The Hard Problem at the Mitzi E. Newhouse Theatre are collected by Playbill in 2018, and her role is mentioned in a Hollywood Reporter review without specific commentary about her performance, and noted in the New York Times as: "The cast — which also includes Nina Grollman, Tara Summers and Katie Beth Hall (as a little girl who looks a lot like Hilary) — exudes an easygoing smoothness even when plowing through the stoniest fields of metaphysics", but reviews otherwise seem focused on lead actors e.g. Vulture; Newsday; The Wrap. Beccaynr (talk) 17:45, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - clearly notable. Jack1956 (talk) 22:42, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:BASIC. The Variety article is focused and in-depth, covering career highlights, and the article in its current state contains several quotes from independent reviewers commenting on her performances (e.g. in The Hollywood Reporter), which is just enough to establish notability beyond simply stating that she was cast or played in those roles. Suggest this article is expanded further with an infobox and filmography section. Cielquiparle (talk) 16:28, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - meets GNG, given the weight of some of the sources - Variety being the pretty much enough on its own, but backed up with the others there's enough there. - SchroCat (talk) 16:04, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The Variety source announces she has been cast in the reboot pilot, lists the lead actress and other cast members in the show, briefly describes what the "rebooted series revolves around", has two brief sentences describing her role, one sentence describing previous "appearances", one sentence listing her agents, and two grafs about the show generally. Beccaynr (talk) 16:22, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The Variety article's headline proclaims her casting, followed by a gigantic photo of her, and three paragraphs about her. That's SIGCOV. To argue otherwise defies reality.  3 reviews praised Hall's work in Better Call Saul, one specifically ranking her scene as one of the whole series' "Best Cold Opens". The Cinema Blend article has a whole section about her.  The Screen Rant article is also primarily about Hall, mentioning her name 9 times and praising her earlier work. Plenty of coverage. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:46, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Beccaynr, It's generally considered good practice to ping people when replying to one of their comments - I only came back by chance and found you had commented.I am entirely aware of what the Variety article contains: I read it before making my comment; it is also only one of several articles on which I have based my !vote, which I make clear in my comment. - SchroCat (talk) 16:49, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * My comment is about a source discussed by multiple participants in this discussion, and generally echoes the comments above by, because there does not appear to be support for WP:ENT notability based on having had "significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions." From my view, there is limited support for WP:BASIC notability from e.g. 3 sentences in the CinemaBlend blog ("The actress might be best remembered for her one-episode guest spot on Better Call Saul, where she played Young Kim in the “Wexler v. Goodman” episode from 2020"), and Screenrant, which cites Variety as its source, repeats the Variety announcement in two sentences, describes her role "important" and later states "Hall has demonstrated her acting prowess in shows like Happy! and Bull. So now, her fans must really be looking forward to her take on the challenging character in the new show." From my view, without WP:ENT clearly supported, WP:BASIC notability needs stronger support from secondary sources than what appears to be available. Beccaynr (talk) 17:28, 2 May 2023 (UTC) (replying to this version Beccaynr (talk) 17:38, 2 May 2023 (UTC))
 * Yes, you've posted twice on the point now, and I don't think anyone is in doubt of your position. There is no right or wrong answer in weighing these up, but my judgement is that there are sufficient sources of sufficient weight. - SchroCat (talk)


 * Keep - has enough references to meet GNG. 1keyhole (talk) 12:54, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete As per the source analysis by Beccaynr. MrsSnoozyTurtle 07:58, 5 May 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.