Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Katie Reider


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   No consensus to delete at this time. &mdash;Sean Whitton / 13:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Katie Reider

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Prod removed with no reasoning, delete per MUSIC and NOTMEMORIAL. This wholy uncited article was created after the subject's death. A Google News search draws no coverage outside of Cincinnati, OH and Columbus, OH (her local area) prior to her obituary notice. As she was an independent musician, there are no major tours, no charted hits, no gold records, no assertion of stylistic representatation (in fact, a recent edit to the article compares her to more established artists), no major music awards or radio play, and in fact, nothing at all that fits WP:MUSIC besides the theme song criterion (which is uncited), despite a close to ten-year career claimed by the article. Perhaps the most pertinent question is that if she was so notable as to have an article, why did no one think to start the article before she died? This seems to be a perennal problem here on WP. MSJapan (talk) 21:39, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


 * KEEP. Katie Reider received five awards for her music. Katie Reider's work was notable, and her Blue Jordan Records label, which has a Wikipedia entry, produces other notable artists -- at least one of whom, David Wolfenberger, has a Wikipedia entry. Katie Reider is cited on the Blue Jordan Records entry and was mentioned there prior to her death, so that should further establish her notability. Katie's music is routinely played on Sirius, and her music has appeared on nationally broadcast television shows such as "Dawson's Creek." She was in the midst of an East Coast music tour when she had to stop the tour for medical treatment. She released four records within six years and performed at several regional independent music festivals. News of Katie's death was reported on several websites -- many of them outside the Columbus and Cincinnati, Ohio, region.Nomad 2 (talk) 17:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: One vote only. MSJapan (talk) 16:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * keep Women's music rarely gets radio air time however she is on Sirius, in my view, this woman would have had an article on Wikipedia soon if not for her illness. Ladyjjames (talk) 02:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * We do not have articles for people who may have become notable, only for those that are. TigerShark (talk) 20:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Reider's death was reported in Europe (Source: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-8417.html). She was notable. Nomad 2 (talk) 02:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Nomad, that is an overstatement of international coverage of her death. In the source above, Reider's death was reported by Pink News, a well-regarded European GLBT news source, which makes sense as Reider was a gay rights activist. However, the coverage from Pink News should not indicate that she is being covered by European media not centered on GLBT issues. -- Guroadrunner (talk) 14:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * * COMMENT The fact remains that a reputable European news source covered Katie Reider's death because of her music and her work as a gay rights activist. The editors of Pink News clearly felt Katie Reider's craft and accomplishments were of sufficent familiarity and interest to its readers to report on her death. As a former reporter with three large national newspaper chains in the United States, I can assure you that news organizations do not write obituaries for people for whom such attention would puzzle its readers.Nomad 2 (talk) 21:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep Four albums in six years (per All Music Guide) show she was not just a flash in the pan. While she didn't receive national attention prior to her death, it seems she had an established fan base--possibly enhanced due to her illness, possibly not--and that she certainly appears to have had a certain amount of regional notability. Folkies and coffeehouse musicians don't often get much coverage, but she appears to have received more than about 95% of them. Eauhomme (talk) 06:18, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Most of the facts in the article, including theme song criteria, are quoted from an article in the Cincinnati Enquirer on her death, http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080714/ENT/80714003 Eauhomme (talk) 08:29, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Having a song used on a TV show is not the same as having a song which was the theme tune to a TV show, which is what WP:MUSIC specifies. So unless she wrote the theme tune to Dawson's Creek (which I don't think is claimed) then she still fails WP:MUSIC. TigerShark (talk) 21:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No. WP:MUSIC specifies "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable...." It cites the theme song as an example, not the defining criteria. Nomad 2 (talk) 02:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: Incidental music in an episode of a TV show is not notable. MSJapan (talk) 16:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * COMMENT: WP:MUSIC states "It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable." Katie's career and performances have been covered with extensive original reporting by numerous news organizations in large DMAs and overseas. WP:MUSIC states "performance in a television show." Katie Reider's music appeared in several nationally broadcast TV shows. WP:MUSIC further states "Has been placed in rotation nationally by any major radio network." Katie Reider's music is in rotation on Sirius Satellite Radio. Finally, Katie Reider's work seems to be covered by Point 7: "the local scene of a city." She received five local music awards.Nomad 2 (talk) 21:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Speedy delete Per WP:A7. And even if sources are added, it fails to meet the WP:BAND guidelines. StaticGull Talk  14:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Katie Reider's music was used in nationally broadcast television shows and is in rotation on Sirius Satellite Radio. Also, Reider's record label is a label of note, and she is cited on Blue Jordan Records Wikipedia page. Further, she won five music awards during her career, and she toured extensively in the United States. Nomad 2 (talk) 02:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: The awards were local, there seems to be no assertion of her having toured nationally, and Blue Jordan is not a label of note. The article on the label lists 19 releases in 11 years, all from local artists only - the various stubs that are bluelinked only build false notability, as most of them only list the same info in the label article. MSJapan (talk) 16:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.   -- the wub  "?!"  20:37, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete I cannot see anything that prevents the subject from failing the general tests of WP:N and the specific tests of WP:MUSIC. Only the album releases had a chance of notability but they seem to have been published by an independant label which does not seem to be an "important" indie label (as defined in WP:MUSIC). TigerShark (talk) 20:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * A7 speedy delete Virtually all the article was a copyright violation as User Freyde noticed: We can't have copy and paste articles on Wikipedia. Artene50 (talk) 21:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep: The article clearly asserts notability and is reasonably well sourced. Local music awards & use of her music in familiar TV programming meets criteria similar to WP:MUSIC, the many reliable sources noting her death suggest she meets WP:N.  The assertion that an earlier version was a copyright violation is irrelevant. -MrFizyx (talk) 15:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: Criteria "similar to" what the policy states don't matter; if the criteria as set forth exactly in the policy are not met, that's it, and obits are a poor indicator of notability. MSJapan (talk) 16:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Reply: OK, I should be more specific. First, I agrue that under WP:MUSIC she meets #1 (the so-called primary criterion), #7 & #10.  Second, the biographic profile from the Cincinnati Enquirer that covers her death is not just your average "obituary" in the "local paper" nor is it the only time that she has had media coverage:
 * Bishop, Lauren, "Musician Katie Reider dies", Cincinnati Enquirer, July 14, 2007
 * Aust, Steve, "Katie Reider turns to family and friends for inspiration and support", CityBeat, May 4, 2000
 * Knott, Sarah, "Rhythm in the City: Katie Reider is ready for anything", Cincinnati Enquirer, March 29, 2001
 * Bird, Rick, "Live CD Shows Power of Katie Reider's Voice", The Cincinnati Post, January 18, 2001
 * Bird, Rick, "New CDs Rolling Out for Katie Reider, Monk", The Cincinnati Post, December 20, 2001
 * Smith, Stephanie, "OSU student sings her way to hit TV show", The Lantern, November 2, 2000
 * -MrFizyx (talk) 18:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * All the sources listed are local, one is a local alt.weekly and another is a student paper. So that doesn't suggest that her notability as musician went beyond her local communities. --Mosmof (talk) 12:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Bob Franke once said, "I never succeeded in becoming a national figure, but I succeeded in becoming local in an awful lot of places." Do you suggest that an "alt.weekly" of a major city and the "student paper" of the largest US university are not reliable sources with non-trivial coverage?  What about the other three articles?  How about this article from today's New York Times (it appears she played in places like the Bitter End in the hometown of that paper)?  Her music was twice featured on Dawson's Creek; any chance they showed that in your town? -MrFizyx (talk) 15:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC) [p.s. The show was set in Massachusetts, but filmed in Wilmington, North Carolina and shown internationally.]
 * I never said the coverage wasn't non-trivial (holy triple negative, Batman!). They just don't establish any sort of notability beyond her own community. And college papers and alt weeklies are very local in what they cover - it would be a different story if we were talking about, say, Miami Herald or the Daily Tar Heel. The NY Times piece is good, and helps establish WP:N much better than any of the above links (though I don't think she still qualifies under WP:MUSIC). As for performing at the Bitter End - the place is basically like an amateur showcase, and hosts upwards of five or six acts a night. While there is a selection process, I don't think playing there demonstrates any sort of notability, any more than an aspiring comedian performing at a West Village open mic night. And the Dawson's Creek credit doesn't help that much too - there are plenty of television music by session musicians and artists who never release an album. We're not going to have an article about the guy who wrote the music for a Battlestar Galactica episode, even though it's a fairly big show and it's set in outer space and filmed in a studio in Los Angeles. I would focus on finding sources like the NY Times one, rather than relying on local papers and Dawson's Creek. --Mosmof (talk) 16:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I was trying to figure why the The Daily Tar Heel was so much better than The Lantern and then it finally sunk in that your point was that this wouldn't be local. :P I know of no notability criteria that require sources to be geographically diverse.  OK then, here's one from Chicago.  Not as helpful where reliability and utility for writing an article as concerned, but yet another locale:
 * Barlow, Gary, "Reider Dies of Cancer, 30", Chicago Free Press, 9:46, July 16, 2008
 * While I think you could find more articles of this sort, but I'm not sure they would contribute much to improving the article.-MrFizyx (talk) 20:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 *  REPLY: Obituaries are news items in a newspaper that a member of the editorial team writes. Obits directly reflect notability. I believe you're thinking of "death notices," which are paid ads. (Source: http://www.nypl.org/research/chss/grd/resguides/obit/)Nomad 2 (talk) 00:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment Many of the early concerns regarding copyvio and sourcing have been corrected, so the current AfD as I see it rests securely on questions of notability. Eauhomme (talk) 19:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Weak keep Maybe I was a bit too hasty to tag this article as a speedy delete. It seems rather more complicated. This reuters article hints at some notability for her. If the copyvio has been removed, then I suppose this article should stay. Artene50 (talk) 02:25, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Not hasty at all. Actually, at the time I made my note about much of the facts being from the Cincinnati Enquirer, I had completely missed that it was a copyvio. I had previously read the Enquirer article (before the Wikipedia article) and had not realized that the Wiki article was indeed a cut and paste. Had I realized it was, I would have called for a Speedy Delete myself, and requested a rewrite of the article. Now that it has been done, I favor a keep, as was my original contention. Eauhomme (talk) 04:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: So now that the article has been rewritten, where's the assertion of notability? There's no tour information, nothing on her awards, fanbase, or sales figures, and nothing substantiating the Dawson's Creek claim, etc. MSJapan (talk) 16:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Reply. The New York Times ran an obituary on Katie Reider in the A-SECTION of the July 24, 2008, edition. Two Katie Reider songs were used in "Dawson's Creek," at least one in Season 4. The official Dawson's Creek music site is offline for some reason, but the NY Times article provides attribution for the use of her songs on the TV show. Nomad 2 (talk) 18:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Not an obit, but rather a local interest story as a result of. However, the attribution is one line, doesn't even give the song title, and there's really very little in the way of specifics about Reider's career in there.  It's more about "the personal impact on the friends" than anything else.  The vagueness of the info indicates that it clearly came from the interviewees, as oposed to outside research, so there's a real problem with WP:RS. MSJapan (talk) 20:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * An article in the A-SECTION of the New York Times is fundamentally more than a "local interest story," given the global readership and the standards by which stories are judged newsworthy to appear in print. I don't think you can separate Katie Reider's notability from the theme of the article -- people die everyday, but articles such as this one are not commonplace. The Dawson's Creek attribution is in the OSU newspaper article. OSU's The Lantern is a credible newspaper at a leading journalism school.38.112.25.6 (talk) 21:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC) (Nomad2)
 * Actually, the cited article ran in the B (metro) section. It is the Our Towns column, which deals with the New York City suburbs. The news peg is that she lived in Montclair, New Jersey - hence, there is local interest. Snakewriggle (talk) 07:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Venues played
I haven't found an actual tour schedule her Reider and it seems she was the opening act in many cases here, but here are some shows that I dug up. Many of these can be verified through primary sources (e.g. the Katie Todd Band site or the venue site). This only shows a few gig's outside of OH, but might be a start for someone to work through. -MrFizyx (talk) 21:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Aug 23 2003, Barrelhouse, Cincinnati, OH w/ The Katie Todd Band
 * Mar 11 2005, Club 202 Columbus, OH w/ The Katie Todd Band
 * Mar 12 2005, Gunther Murphy's, Chicago, IL w/ The Katie Todd Band
 * June 4 2005, Rhythm and Blues Cafe, Cincinnati w/ The Katie Todd Band
 * Aug 19 2005, Schuba's, Chicago, IL: Down The Line (Record Release) w/ Katie Reider
 * Dec 30 2005, Little Brothers Columbus OH: w/ The Katie Todd Band & The Floor Walkers
 * Jan 6, 2006, Schuba's, Chicago, IL: Miller Genuine Draft presents: The Onion AV Club's Justify Your Existence featuring...Katie Todd Band w/ The Katie Reider Band
 * Apr 8 2006, Acorn Theater, Three Oaks, MI w/ The Katie Todd Band
 * Comment Katie Reider has performed live since the 1990s and was in the midst of an East Coast tour in 2006; the complete roster is far lengthier than one submitted here. Katie Reider also performed several times at a leading regional invitation-only showcase event, the MidPoint Music Festival.38.112.25.6 (talk) 22:12, 24 July 2008 (UTC) (Nomad2)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.