Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kemonomimi (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   redirect to Moe anthropomorphism. MuZemike 19:53, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Kemonomimi
AfDs for this article: 
 * – (View AfD) (View log)

The original one was snowball kept. Howver it was decided by post-deletion discussion, as well as mentions inside the original deletion discussion, that the term might be better in wikitionary. Before that happened, in an effort to save the article I scoured the internet for usage of the term by reliable sources to verify the use. The only source is a manga which uses it as part of the setting, ie a primary source. While the term is correct as the term literally means "Animal Ears", a reference to one of the most common aspects of the being it cannot be verified by a independent reliable source as such. This includes online and offline as far as I can tell. I don't have access to many offline Japanese texts so I cannot say for certain, but my exhaustive research has come up empty and thus why moving it to Wiktionary was done. 陣 内 Jinnai 05:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Moe anthropomorphism This article already has a little section on it, and List of Kemonomimi can always be wikilinked there under Animals. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:51, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Concerning the Hart book, it may be a bit longer than I expected; I'm behind someone else in line for it. -kotra (talk) 03:47, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - my search for sources (Google Scholar, Google Books, my public library catalog, other Wikipedias), turned up no reliable sources for the terms "kemonomimi" and "獣耳". The two books in the Further Reading section bear investigation, though. I can acquire both of them from my library and report what I find if that would be helpful? -kotra (talk) 17:52, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Go ahead. I was unable to aquire them at my public library. 陣 内 Jinnai 18:17, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok. I can get the Poulos book as soon as tonight or tomorrow night; I'll report what, if anything, it says about kemonomimi. I also placed a hold on the Hart book, but I may not receive it until early next week (26th or 27th). -kotra (talk) 20:34, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I got the Gerry Poulos book (Cosplay: Catgirls and Other Critters) and read/scanned the whole thing. It's about what you'd expect: a book on how to make and cosplay in catgirl costumes. It has a couple very brief background passages on catgirls, but no real background on "other critters". The words "kemonomimi" and "kemono" aren't mentioned once (nor any Japanese terms for "catgirl"). It is basically a (heavily illustrated) instruction manual on catgirl costumes. Unfortunately this means it is not useful for the topic of kemonomimi, except possibly to support the existence and popularity of catgirls (but not kemonomimi in general). As a side note, it does have a list of 25 "popular catgirls" in anime and video games, which could be of use in sourcing List of catgirls. In any case, I made some copies of relevant pages, which I can scan and email if anyone is interested (or requires proof); I'm not going to link to them on-wiki though for copyright reasons.
 * Acquired and read the Christopher Hart book, Manga Mania: Chibi and Furry Characters: How to Draw the Adorable Mini-characters and Cool Cat-girls of Japanese Comics. Unfortunately, it's even less helpful than the Poulos book. It calls these same part-animal, part-human characters "furry characters" and "anthros", with no mention of "kemonomimi" or "kemono", or even much background on cat-girls. This is really not too unexpected since the book is about how to draw them, not what they are or what they are called in Japanese. I will be holding onto this book for a few more days in case anyone wants me to scan pages, as I mentioned with the Poulos book. -kotra (talk) 07:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * merge with List of Kemonomimi, as suggested at that AfD.    DGG ( talk ) 20:55, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This result though will all depend on if List of Kemonomimi is kept in AfD. If the term is widely used but can not be verified, a redirect might be best. - Knowledgekid87 (talk)
 * Keep We had this discussion already, the previously AFD ending in a snowball keep. There is no doubt that this is a real thing.  There is even a Wikipedia category for it already. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Kemonomimi Other pages are for something different, it not all the same.   D r e a m Focus  23:01, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. The closure was based on the idea that there must be evidence out there because it is a commonly used term, but no RSes have come forth. 陣 内 Jinnai 23:03, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * 362,000 results when I Google it. You can verify it is a term commonly used by a lot of people for this sort of thing.  I click Google Shopping and see toys called kemonomimi, with various animals mixed with people.  There was no consensus to turn this into a Wikitionary entry, most saying keep in the last AFD.   D r e a m Focus  23:07, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Google hits are specifically mentioned as a way you cannot confer notability and defiantly not verifiability. A shopping site can and often will market stuff as things they aren't. video games for a while were marketed as role-playing games when the only aspect of RPGs they had was you taking on the "role" of someone therefore how marketers list items cannot be a definition. Furthermore Wikipedia is about variability - from WP:V's first sentance "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth[...]". Unless you think someone Japanese terms should be exempt from this core policy. While there are people who use it, we don't list every term on wikipeida like weebu just because people use it. Finally that previous AfD was before exhaustive searches for sources were done. That has now been the case and evidence shows there are probablyy no RSes (barring those in the further reading) about the term. 陣 内 Jinnai 23:37, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Many people use the term. Check Google, Google books(there a manga that uses it in its title even), Google video, and Google shopping, to see examples of the term being used in all of those.   D r e a m Focus  14:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, i can point to the RPG label for video games. It was fairly universal. How a product is marketed cannot be used as a RS as their goal is to sell a product and they will liberally place labels to attact attention. 陣 内 Jinnai 22:43, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It also bears stressing that it doesn't matter how many people use the term, or if the term exists. It only matters if reliable sources use the term. Wikipedia is built on reliable sources. -kotra (talk) 17:52, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Merge Redirect to Moe anthropomorphism, little more than a dicdef. Merging to the list is out of the question, since we generally don't keep "list of x" if "x" doesn't have an article. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 03:19, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If merged then a lot of information would be lost, you not able to copy everything over there. It'd end up just being a redirect replacing the current article.   D r e a m Focus  14:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletion discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 14:21, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The catgirl article says in Japan catgirls are called nekomimi, meaning cat ears. The word mimi meaning ears is added behind an animal name.  Inumimi, kitsunemimi, usagimimi, etc.  Kemonomimi means animal ears.  Searching for any of these terms on Google, shows a rather large number of hits.  This is how the community refers to them.  Is that in doubt in anyone's mind?  As a word well defined and often used by fans of these sorts of things, should it not get its own article?   D r e a m Focus  08:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete per my previous nomination. The article is still entirely unverifiable against reliable sources and is based around original research and personal opinion. Even a basic WP:DICDEF has not been sourced. —Farix (t &#124; c) 13:18, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Moe anthropomorphism, as list of kemonomimi is nominated for delition. -- deerstop. 17:29, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Moe anthropomorphism; this dictdef doesn't even have a properly sourced definition, and at least one attempt to find sources for its definition have failed. However, it seems to be a likely search term, enough to keep me from outright !voting for deletion. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · Talk⇒Dinoguy1000 18:59, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment - those suggesting reditect to Moe anthropomorphism do not seem to understand that Kemonomimi can, and often aren't, moe. Better to just merge some info with Anthropomorphism itself. 陣 内 Jinnai 22:55, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.