Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ken Whitman


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Can be userfied for improvement on request. The later "Keep" opinions are ... very questionable, and are discounted.  Sandstein  07:12, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Ken Whitman

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BLP that fails WP:BASIC, being very hard to find any reliable secondary sources in a search.  Nott Nott  talk &#124;contrib 21:17, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Move to Draftspace in light of BOZ's comment below.  Nott Nott  talk &#124;contrib 17:26, 31 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete: Non-notable person, definitely failing WP:BASIC. Face-smile.svg samtar { t } 21:41, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions.  Human 3015   TALK    22:07, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions.  Human 3015   TALK    22:07, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  Human 3015   TALK    22:07, 29 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete non-notable (edit: or move to draft and redirect per others). Unfortunately I am not finding reliable sources. It's all social media, self-published, various gamer stuff. Also the main source used in the article is Designers and Dragons a book published by Mongoose Publishing which is the same company that publishes Traveller, a game which Whitman helped design - thus conflicted for establishing notability. The rest of the sources are primary. -- Green  C  02:15, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep or Draftify so that it can be worked on. I have to disagree with Green Cardamom's assessment of Designers & Dragons as a valid source for this article. While it is true that Mongoose was one of several companies that has published Traveller (along with GDW, Impermium, Steve Jackson Games, QLI/RPGRealms Publishing, and Far Future Enterprises), they were not the game's publisher any longer by the time Designers & Dragons was published in 2011 (Far Future's version was being developed by then). The game had a few editions (and a decade or so) between "Marc Miller's Traveller" on which Whitman had his only involvement in Traveller, and the publication of the Mongoose version of Traveller. In writing a book for Mongoose, the author Shannon Appelcline may have focused on Traveller history in more detail for the company who was recently the game's publisher, but even if Mongoose had something to benefit from such a promotion of the game, I can argue that the book was not promoting Whitman at all. In fact, when I wrote this article, I toned down some of Appelcline's criticism of Whitman, and even one portion such as this had been removed from the article. So the link between Whitman and Mongoose is very, very tenuous and require a lot of indirect relationships and leaps of logic to be made. Designers & Dragons was republished and expanded by Evil Hat Publications last year - a company with no connection to Traveller at all so far as I know - and included all the information from the Mongoose edition, including all the criticism of some of his activities. In fact, it says a little more about Whitman which I have not yet added to the article. I switched the citations in the article to the Evil Hat Games edition of Designers & Dragons, if that helps. In my opinion, it is a solid source. The challenge here is that we need more.  I am confident that they exist, in gaming magazines or something written by experts in the field, because he has been controversial, but the challenge is that unless you actually own a copy of such publications it may be very difficult to find that out from just internet searches. Which can be very frustrating - it is easy to have a subject for which plenty of legitimate sources do exist, but which are out of your reach at the moment. BOZ (talk) 16:50, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd be in favour of moving it to draftspace as per your suggestion as there's clearly a lot of information most non-specialist editors are missing out on. The article will need a huge makeover, but this is probably the best for most editors concerned about the article in its present state.  Nott Nott  talk &#124;contrib 17:26, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the article needs to be updated and kept if for no other reason that Ken Whitman has been noted recently of bilking many people out of money via at least 6 fraudulent Kickstarter campaigns. Ken Whitman has been noted in the RPG industry, and not necessarily positively, as a minor contributor here or there. Without resources like Wikipedia, he would be allowed to control far too much of the information about his past. There are sources other than Designers & Dragons and Mr. Whitman, such as this siteCStogdill (talk) 22:39, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


 * redirect to Imperium Games -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  17:38, 31 October 2015 (UTC) meh, this is not a great option either, as Imperium Games suffers from a similar lack of evidence of notability. --  TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  12:39, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Move to draftspace and redirect the base page name to Imperium Games pending improvement of the article. bd2412  T 00:09, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep or Draftify -- User GalakStarscraperArticle should stand. Ken Whitman in the gaming world has left a long black mark that has actually put at least 3 other businesses out of business.   He has done this by too many people being willing to cover up or remove those trying to honestly post about him.  Bernie Madoff gets a page for destroying people's fortunes ... Ken Whitman deserves one as well as he has done the same to thousands of people just with different methods.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by GalakStarscraper (talk • contribs) 14:35, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * that is not a valid rationale at all -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  14:46, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep --- Since it seems that Mr. Whitman [redacted link to blog making defamatious claims about a living person] may become the second Kickstarter creator to be sued by a state (Kentucky) Attorney General] for lack of results, I think he is certainly "notable." At the very least, I think consideration of notability may be premature. If nothing comes of it, then we can consider the matter at a later date. --Roland 18:59, 3 November 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rvolz (talk • contribs)
 * we do not keep articles based upon some random bloggers belief that something might happen. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  12:36, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - Single source and frankly I am dubious of his involvement in Imperium (which would be his most notable achievement given its involvement with Traveller) given that I cant find anywhere else that states he co-founded it. Our own article on Imperium (while not useful as a source) does not mention him at all. Indicating the sources for Imperium have little to say about him. Not adverse to Draftifying it as per Rvolz above though, the kickstarter lawsuits are only going to increase... Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:36, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep --- There are far too many people who need to know what is going on with this individual, since he has allegedly taken so much money from them and given nothing in return. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.51.41 (talk) 03:22, 6 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.