Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kenji Yamamoto (DBZ game musician)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. The overall policy-supported consensus here is in favour of deletion; while hypothetical statements of notability and reliable-source coverage were made none of those arguing to keep the article provided enough substantial coverage in reliable sources to comply with the applicable notability guidelines. From an encyclopedia's point of view, coverage solely in self-published and unreliable sources does not make for a reliable article. ~ mazca  talk 19:33, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Kenji Yamamoto (DBZ game musician)

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Unnotable video game musician who supposedly has composed music from a few of the DBZ games, though there is no reliable source confirming this, just a single infoseek link. If all that can be said about this person from even none reliable sources is a list of works, it fails WP:N and WP:CREATIVE, as well as introducing BLP concerns. -- Collectonian  (talk · contribs) 13:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletion discussions. — --  Collectonian  (talk · contribs) 13:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete appears to fail WP:COMPOSER along with WP:NOTE. --Farix (Talk) 14:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per Farix. Also, few WP:RS to comply with WP:BLP. -- RUL3R *flaming 14:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. MrKIA11 (talk) 14:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Such a vastly popular long running series could easily afford to hire anyone they wanted, but choose him time and again. His work is a notable part of games and shows that millions of people see.   D r e a m Focus  21:42, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The lack of reliable sources is an issue, if it was sourced I would suggest merging to Dragonball, making a note in the relevant sections that he composed music for Kai and the games. However the lack of reliable sources would cause problems if that action was chosen, as the rest of the article has demonstrated at least some degree of reliability (at a glance). So unless reliable sources are found I'm going with Delete per Farix's and RUL3R. Dandy Sephy (talk) 00:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep There are many sources, just not listed here. VGMdb has an entire discography listed for him with linked albums and scans for legitimacy: . MobyGames also has entries listed for him as composer (e.g. ,). He is the predominate composer for a major video game series covering a dozen games played by millions of people. His music has gotten several album releases by major record labels in Japan. (see the VGMdb link). That should meet enough criteria. --Kaleb.G (talk) 00:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * vgmdb is a user edited site and not a reliable source. No one has denied he has done music, however, no reliable sources say anything about him other than listing his credits. That does not meet notability criteria for the person, even if he has done several albums for a series. -- Collectonian  (talk · contribs) 01:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Once does not achieve a Discography like that without being notable. A major company wouldn't keep putting those out for the Dragonball series, if they weren't selling well.  Common sense over wikilawyering.  And if they haven't been released in America, then you can't even look for sources for any of the albums, unless you find someone who speaks Japanese.  And how often do albums based on a cartoon/manga/video game series get reviewed in the media?  Does anyone know where the Japanese album sales are listed?  They surely have a site like Billboard.com somewhere.  If the albums were hits, then the one who produced them is automatically a hit on that alone.   D r e a m Focus  01:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * How would you know? Are you a Japanese company and do you have any knowledge or understanding of how Japanese culture works? Almost every anime series, even the worst received, will still put out soundtracks, and in Japanese culture it would make perfect sense to keep him around even if he did not great music nor was notable. And no, the albums being hits does not make a performer on them (not a producer) automatically notable. Notability is not inherited and he is a living person who deserves the respect of not having an unsourced article making claims about him just because anyone can go around and throw anything they want about him there out of a non-existent claim of notability. The onus is on those saying keep to find sources. One can search in Japanese, but unlike American culture where the theme singer might have tons of press and what not, he likely would not anymore than any other person who contributed to the work. American thinking is about the I - Japanese about the - We. -- Collectonian  (talk · contribs) 01:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * After lurking around the web i doubt that we have enough to support the notability of this person     . This person worked outside DBZ mainly as an arranger . He is an arranger first & composer second. Verifiability issue, Oricon doesn't give the full artist credit for every DBZ related CDs. Notability issue, none of the DBZ CDs i could check, made it into the Oricon chart. Personal comment, this person should be notable by himself NOT because he composed DBZ musics. I think title like "Kenji Yamamoto (DBZ game musician)" is rather insulting. Regardless whatever he is notable or not this person has an existence outside DBZ so reducing him to the guy who did the DBZ music is rude to not say more. --KrebMarkt 07:46, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * And how would you disambiguate? We already have a Kenji Yamamoto (Nintendo musician) article. Still, I don't find this man notable enough. --> RUL3R *flaming 13:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey, i didn't say that he was notable :p One is an arranger/compositor and the other a music director/compositor no luck same name and same field of practice. --KrebMarkt 21:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep per the recent changes. Article now includes reliable sources and is not just a list of his credits. Used the profile at his management's site as the main source. Also, because it's an annoying misconception: VGMdb is not a user-edited site (like Wikipedia). It is user-contributed. All edits, without exception, are proofread and double-checked by knowledgeable staff members. Prime Blue (talk) 11:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The two sources are still just directory entries and doesn't demonstrate any form of notability. In fact, WP:NOTE specificity excludes directories and databases as evidence. --Farix (Talk) 13:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, no, the profile at his management's site is not. And the credits list is not whose notability we're discussing here. Prime Blue (talk) 13:44, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The mangement's profile page is a directory and it's not a source independent of the subject. The VGMdb reference is clearly a database. Neither one of these can be used as evidence for notability. And his credits don't show any evidence that he passes WP:COMPOSER either. --Farix (Talk) 15:29, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The management site is used as a source for occupational information about Yamamoto, not his composition credits. And WP:SELFPUB encourages this source as long as it's not full of self-serving, fact-twisting adulation (which seems to be your point of criticism in order to challenge it – if I understood you right) which is not the case. And WP:COMPOSER is clearly talking about notable compositions, in that they are professional and it sets them apart from, say, someone who just happens to hum a melody, write lyrics to it and claim himself to be a composer. Yamamoto composed music for a reasonably successful game series and had several of his works released on CD. If you think that's not notable, then you didn't understand WP:COMPOSER. Prime Blue (talk) 17:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * None of the albums he composed and i could check managed to make into the Oricon's Top 300 albums chart. He composed the music for DBZs that's rich but none was a hit in the chart so now knowing that is he a notable composer? For the albums, he officiated as arranger that another story but we don't have a set of guideline for notable arranger. --KrebMarkt 17:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Delete Within what i could verify, none of the compositions of this person made it into the charts. --KrebMarkt 05:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So you were being serious. If charts are the scale for notability of music now, then you'll have quite a lot of CD release and artist articles to flag for deletion. Also, you keep saying he is mostly arranging rather than composing. That's simply not true if you check the facts. He is the composer for Super Butōden, Super Butōden 2, Super Butōden 3, Super Goku Den — Totsugeki-Hen, some other games and new tracks in Dragon Ball Kai. Prime Blue (talk) 11:22, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Please notice the world outside the DBZ franchise exists ;) See: that 編曲者 = Arranger & 作曲者 = Composer/Writing. He is doing mostly arrangement rather than composition. --KrebMarkt 12:01, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're trying to make a point, I clearly don't get it. I don't see how his arrangement work would make him any less notable a composer than before. He composes music himself. Prime Blue (talk) 14:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * He is an arranger first and a composer second. That doesn't make him less notable but accuracy require people to stop viewing him as just the guy who did DBZ music. Another point, i must ask you why Super Butōden, Super Butōden 2, Super Butōden 3, Super Goku Den — Totsugeki-Hen are notable? Answering something like because it's DBZ would be a poor answer. --KrebMarkt 16:13, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not because "it's DBZ", but because those are professional compositions which have been released on CD. Not to mention they were released by companies that published the work of other notable artists. Prime Blue (talk) 13:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. Non-notable. Doctorfluffy (wanna get fluffed?) 07:27, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, the notability of his work as a composer is what is disputed right now. WP:COMPOSER does not define what a "notable composition" is, that's why it's POV until it's clarified. KrebMarkt defines it as something that made it into the charts, I define it as works by professional composers whose occupation it is to create music and who had CD releases of their compositions. From KrebMarkt's standpoint, I don't see how Kōji Kondō meets KrebMarkt's notability criteria either (at least I didn't find any of his works in the charts on the Oricon site, just some track lists), so I'd encourage you to flag that article for deletion, too. Prime Blue (talk) 13:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well in Kōji Kondō's case the interview from Ign & 1up and not counting the others make him notable.
 * Back to Kenji Yamamoto, there are still avenues to prove his notability, one is look for coverage on his person. 2 non-trivial papers where he is the central subject would do providing there are from reliable sources. Easier, look for games reviews & games music reviews if his name is mentioned explicitly numerous times by various reliable sources you may try to sell the noteworthy for video games reviewers argument. --KrebMarkt 16:12, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:NM states Please note that the failure to meet any of these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; conversely, meeting any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept. But I found a review doing just a quick search anyway. If you're already thinking about the next step, I suggest to go here. Prime Blue (talk) 18:16, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm aware of the RS stamp on RPGamer & RPGFan :p Shower us with RS reviews with his name mentioned to convince us. --KrebMarkt 18:49, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Read the above, I've made my point on that clearly. Prime Blue (talk) 19:02, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:MUSIC, or more specificity WP:NSONG, does state what makes a notable composition or song. All articles on albums, singles or songs must meet the basic criteria at the notability guidelines, with significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. . . . Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable. And since WP:COMPOSER is a subsection of WP:MUSIC dealing specifically with the notability of composers, then it is very much relevant. --Farix (Talk) 17:00, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * All articles on albums, singles or songs must meet the basic criteria at the notability guidelines, with significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. [...] Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable.
 * That is the first flaw with your reasoning. The second being, you're arguing in circles. You're basing the notability of a composer off the notability of his song and album articles, which would itself again be dependent on the notability of its composer in this case, as WP:NM goes on to state:
 * In general, if the musician or ensemble that recorded an album is considered notable, then officially released albums may have sufficient notability to have individual articles on Wikipedia. [...] Most songs do not rise to notability for an independent article and should redirect to another relevant article, such as for the songwriter, a prominent album or for the artist who prominently performed the song.
 * By your argument, that would mean that each musician listed on Wikipedia would have to have at least one notable song or album article to make the musician article notable itself, although WP:NM claims the opposite for artists without songs or compositions that made it into the charts. Prime Blue (talk) 18:16, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - Composer of the music for a pretty notable gaming series. Needs expansion and a good reffing however -- Cabe  6403  (Talk•Sign) 20:16, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. Lots of hand-waving on the keep side about how there are plenty of sources if somebody would just add them, little actual presentation of said sources. See also WP:GNUM. Stifle (talk) 08:53, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, no, not "lots of hand-waving", but just Kaleb G. who said there were many such sources. I've never said that there is a plethora of what Wikipedia classifies as reliable sources, but the sources provided are sufficient. I've given my reasons for that, but again, notability of composers is not just defined by reliable sources dealing with them. Prime Blue (talk) 17:13, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep. It didn't take me long to find Kenji Yamamoto's recording studio website, it has a bunch of info on there including his works, who he works with, etc...someone needs to expand this. -- DBHighDef (talk) 14:35, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete does not appear to meet the general notability criteria or the primary criteria for people. There is a lack of significant, independent coverage by reliable sources. The only coverage that I can find is what's been given above - directory entries (not significant) and selfpublished material (not independent). Guest9999 (talk) 15:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This is kind of a callback to my reply to Stifle. WP:ENTERTAINER under additional criteria for the notability of people links to MUSIC, because the actual composer notability criteria are defined in WP:COMPOSER. I also mentioned why WP:SELFPUB encourages the management site (if that one could even be considered self-published since it's not from Yamamoto himself): Because the material is not unduly self-serving and there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity. Prime Blue (talk) 17:13, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I have no problems with the use of selfpublished sources in this context but they don't go towards establishing notability per the general guideline which specifically requires sources "Independent of the subject" - which excludes such works. The purpose of the management site is to promote the individual - a service I imagine they are paid for - it should not be the basis of an article. I went "back" to WP:BIO as I'm not convinced the individual meets any of the specific criteria set out in WP:COMPOSER; his compositions appear in games which are certainly notable and on albums which may well be notable but I'm not convinced the compositions themselves are notable. Guest9999 (talk) 18:08, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.