Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kenny Cordray


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep, per arguments below, meets WP:GNG Samir 16:37, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Kenny Cordray

 * – ( View AfD View log )

I deprodded because I think it needs a full AfD to find any hidden sources, however the article is written in peacock-ish terms. Google search reveals promotional material, and almost all sources in the article itself are either near verbatim copies of the article text, or have almost no bearing on the article's claims itself. This appears to be largely promotional, and of dubious notability. Shadowjams (talk) 03:02, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Note to closing admin: There's a duplicate article, now a redirect at Kenny cordray that should be deleted in the case this is. Shadowjams (talk) 03:04, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

I disagree entirely, this is all factual information. Regardless of your elitist prick ideas, there is an entire community of musicians here ready to ram this down your throats. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelco83 (talk • contribs) 03:07, 25 March 2012 (UTC) Right, such as 2. Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelco83 (talk • contribs) 03:17, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: Regardless of whether it's factual or not, the article has to show how he is notable by Wikipedia's criteria. Please see WP:N, WP:BIO, and WP:MUSIC for guidelines.  It seems that you have been notified of this several times at Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Kenny Cordray. ...  disco spinster   talk  03:15, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: Which single or album was this? The article mentions "Francine" by ZZ Top but there is no source verifying its charting.  ...  disco spinster   talk  03:22, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

If you read the article, it clearly states the information and is cross refrenced from ZZ Top's own wiki site.

1. Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable and are independent from the musician or ensemble itself.[note 1] Meets this criteria with the recently published album It Takes Everything, and Francine on ZZ Top's album Rio Grande Mud.

6. Is an ensemble which contains two or more independently notable musicians, or is a musician who has been a member of two or more independently notable ensembles. Played with Jaco Pastorious, and Jerry Lee Lewis.

Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g. a theme for a network television show, performance in a television show or notable film, inclusion on a notable compilation album, etc. (But if this is the only claim, it is probably more appropriate to have a mention in the main article and redirect to that article. Read WP:BLP1E and WP:BIO1E for further clarifications) Francine by ZZ Top, Livin On on the Sugar Hill compliation album. Live Performance on Midnight Special with Jerry Lee Lewis and Wayne Cochran and the C.C. Riders.

11. Has been placed in rotation nationally by any major radio or music television network. ZZ Top Francine US, Jazz legends BBC UK — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelco83 (talk • contribs) 03:29, 25 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: A few points of contention with User:Kelco83's argument-
 * You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the first criterion, which refers to coverage. Are there independent, reliable sources that cover this musician? Things like newspapers, magazine articles, ect.
 * "Francine" was co-authored by Cordray for another artist. I'm not sure if that counts as "his" single for the purposes of criterion 2.
 * Cordray has performed with several notable musicians and ensembles, but as far as I can tell these have been temporary and informal associations. Criterion 6 is only relevant if Cordray has been a member of two or more notable ensembles.
 * My response to the criterion 11 claim is the same as my response to criterion 2. "Francine" is ZZ Top's single, which Cordray co-authored.

That said I'm still extremely reluctant to make the call of non-notable. Call it a feeling. "Feelings" have no place in an AfD debate, though, so I'm gonna go comb through Google results and maybe attempt a reason-based "keep" !vote later. Angrysockhop ( talk to me ) 04:23, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Francine is as much Cordray's as it is ZZ Top's, if you wan't to argue whose song it is, perhaps you should wiki up the information. ;) Also, this is some really nitpicky stuff. Kenny Cordray is a guitar legend who didn't always take the lime light.  To deny this would be out of pure spite.  He's more than notable, especially compared to some of the other "artists" that have a page. I still don't understand why there is so much resistence to this when I'm merely filling out information when Kenny Cordray has already been refrenced by ZZ Top themselves.  Go to itunes and preview any song he's got, he's not a joke, he's the real deal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelco83 (talk • contribs) 04:47, 25 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep, or at least wait a bit. I found a few pings on older newspaper articles, but those aren't available without subscription. Give me a few days and I'll comb through the newspaper archives at my college library, maybe I'll find something. I don't know where Cordray is based but I know ZZ Top is from Houston. I happen to live there also, so maybe a bit of meatspace investigation will turn up something. Angrysockhop  ( talk to me ) 05:36, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, I would recommend User:Kelco83 to voluntarily limit edits on the Kenny Cordray article because of suspected conflict of interest issues (User:Kelco83 self-identified as "Kelly Cordray" on user page). Angrysockhop  ( talk to me ) 05:45, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

I would like to contest being restricted from edits as the rule says you cannot make an article about yourself, blood relation should be free to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelco83 (talk • contribs) 06:21, 25 March 2012‎ (UTC)


 * There's no rule against editing your own article, or your dad's... but WP:COI is a useful guide. Shadowjams (talk) 07:01, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It was a recommendation, not an order, and I have neither the authority nor desire to restrict you from editing whatever topic you like. I'm just saying that as a blood relative, you need to pay extra attention to principles like Neutral point of view, No original research, and Verifiability. And use better sources. You're writing things you already know are true, but you're backing up your statements with poor sources, so other readers have no reason to believe you. I'm sorry, but you can't cite a Wikipedia article with another Wikipedia article. Angrysockhop  ( talk to me ) 10:03, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

I would understand your point, but in comparison to other articles, this is pretty dry stuff. If you want to challenge my sources as credible, thats fine, but I have hit on more than 1 criteria for notability. Instead of a recommendation of deletion, why isn't the article flagged for needing more information. I just wanted to get this started, I don't want to write the whole thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelco83 (talk • contribs) 13:04, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Establishment of notability can't be separated from the quality of the sources. It doesn't matter how many criteria an article claims to hit if there aren't the sources to establish that the claims are true. — Paul A (talk) 04:00, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

This is the nitpicking thing we're talking about now. Lets nit pick this statement. Which sources do not back up the claims?
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 23:16, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

We put up a USA today article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.246.89 (talk) 12:40, 28 March 2012 (UTC) Are ya'll done with this farce? There is more than enough to keep Kenny Cordray on wikipedia.org. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.246.89 (talk) 12:43, 28 March 2012 (UTC) The article pages that were uploaded have been deleted, used an alternative source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.246.89 (talk) 00:41, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Update: I'm finding a plethora of old Houston Chronicle articles on microfilm that cover Cordray. The article needs a lot of editing, but now that I have quality sources to work with I'm confident I can bring Kenny Cordray up to par. It looks like he was mostly a local phenomenon, but local doesn't mean non-notable (especially when the local area is also the 4th largest city in America). His coverage in the Chron archives is extensive, and his impact on the Houston-area music scene is substantial. Angrysockhop  ( talk to me ) 01:17, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you could give some citations so others can check up on your microfilm expeditions. And even substantial local coverage doesn't mean notability. Shadowjams (talk) 06:59, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It would really depend on the nature of the coverage. In particular, the coverage may establish inclusion per WP:MUSICBIO point 7 as prominent representative of a local music scene.  I'll also note that Cordray may qualify per WP:COMPOSER point 1.  He is verifiably |credited as one of three songwriters for the "Francene" which charted on the Billboard Hot 100. --- Whpq (talk) 15:13, 4 April 2012 (UTC)


 * It looks like there is an attempt to find old non-google-fingertips sources going on, some of these appear to be articles dedicated to the subject in mainstream media publications, which would lean in favor of keep.--Milowent • hasspoken 03:45, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BusterD (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

 
 * Relisting comment. Relisted to let User:Angrysockhop apply offline sources so notability can be properly evaluated. BusterD (talk) 18:31, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, B  music  ian  04:27, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

 I was not flustered over this, but I will flame someone using "peacockish" to describe my writing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.195.155.116 (talk) 15:02, 9 April 2012 (UTC) Fine, I'll slap your clowns with libel accusations, keep your dogs on a leash. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.195.155.116 (talk) 02:23, 10 April 2012 (UTC) I'm no lawyer, but its easy to see that it was one of wikipedias editors that broke this so called civility. Who is running this outfit, clearly this group of editors are way out of line. It looks like Kelco was provoked and was defending himself. I'm sure whoever is in charge would loath to see the actionable position he's been put in by you guys. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.249.194.129 (talk) 15:35, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. Looks like the sources are legitimate.  And Kelco, even with the anonymous login, please remove the incivility from yourself before coming in here. As flustering as this is, it does not matter what the article is, it needs to pretty much meet the same criteria - and yes, we WILL nitpick about that, because that nitpicking is what separates the wheat from the chaff. -- Dennis The Tiger   (Rawr and stuff) 07:33, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No, you won't, and I again point to WP:CIVIL. DO NOT do this, under ANY circumstances.  Read that link.  End of discussion. -- Dennis The Tiger   (Rawr and stuff) 18:21, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - ISP level block by user:Jimfbleak for that above response and generally ignoring WP:CIVIL. -- Dennis The Tiger   (Rawr and stuff) 07:38, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I have reported you for your legal threat, as such is absolutely against the rules. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:56, 14 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment - OK, we've gotten off track here. The article's been fixed, and will likely be kept.  That said, AFD is not the place to discuss whether somebody was treated badly, that's what dispute resolution is for.  If you think you were mistreated, Kelco, you are best off communicating grievances there. -- Dennis The Tiger   (Rawr and stuff) 17:33, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - the amended article with the Chronicle citations establishes notability per WP:MUSIC. Even without the references, I'd agree notability based on WP:COMPOSER 1 - despite Kelco83's appalling incivility, something she mentioned earlier in the AfC process should definitely be added to the article: Cordray co-wrote ZZ Top's first chart hit - notable enough for me. ✤ Fosse 8 ✤ talk 11:09, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Kelco - HE, not she. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.148.238.9 (talk) 19:39, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Was just providing some balance, since the IP above had assumed Kelco was a man. Normally I'd use a gender-neutral pronoun.  Of course, we're all guessing, since all these IPs definitely aren't Kelco or their friends continuing to contribute to the AfD after being banned for making a legal threat.  Definitely not.  ✤ Fosse 8 ✤ talk 09:08, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.