Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kentlake High School


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   Keep. Alan 16 talk  23:00, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Note for clarity: This is a Speedy Keep 1 - Nominator withdraws.  SilkTork  *YES! 22:22, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Kentlake High School

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Delete - I don't think this article reaches any of the standards set in Notability. The article is about a normal high school with no reason for it having an article. The article has no references. As Notability states, "it is important to not just consider whether notability is established by the article, but whether it readily could be", and I conclude that it does not. No reason for the article.
 * No-Vote - I want to start this saying that I have not changed my opinion due to the arguments put forward in this debate. I have changed my opinion because of the necessary changes this AfD has provoked. The number of positive edits has seriously improved these last few days compared to before the AfD. I would like to add that too many of you reference pages like WP:WPSCHOOLS, WP:NHS, Notability (high schools), and High Schools, as if they were Wikipedia policy - they are not. I would also like to add that many of you talked about past AfD or about generalisations, and almost none of you actually tried to point out notability in this specific instance. I now know that many of you have set yourself to stand against anyone who questions the notability of a school, and I find this saddening as it makes honest debate almost impossible in such a disingenuous environment. I imagine this will be closed shortly, so thank you all for your participation, even if I disagreed with damn near all of you. Alan 16  talk  21:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - as with all such high schools plenty of sources are available. This school is a significant institution in its community and the way forward is to source and expand the page and certainly not to delete. TerriersFan (talk) 22:37, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny how none such sources show up on Google. Schools are organizations and this particular one doesn't meet WP:ORG. (High schools are no more special than any other school.) - Mgm|(talk) 22:43, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - A quick search on Google and most of the pages (apart from the Wikipedia page) are school related sites, which are not reference-able sites. I do not think that it is anywhere near notable to be on Wikipedia. It is just an ordinary high school, with no notable alumini or notable achievements at all.  Alan 16  talk  22:46, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - certainly these are not school related sites and are RSs. TerriersFan (talk) 22:56, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - They are not school related sites. However they are also almost wholly irrelevant. Alan 16  talk  23:02, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Wow! You have read through and evaluated 357 sources in 6 minutes including those behind paywalls? That takes some doing; it generally takes me 6 minutes to get a single pay per view source!. So what assessment did you make of the web legal case? TerriersFan (talk) 23:20, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - What did I make of it? I saw that it added nothing to the notability of the article. Like the other sources. I didn't read them all - I looked at the ones with most hits, and they are all about irrelevant things. Rather than being a sarcastic moron, can you think of an actual reason to keep the article? Alan 16  talk  23:26, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - 'Rather than being a sarcastic moron' is a clear breach of WP:CIVIL. The point I am making is that you made an inaccurate statement 'most of the pages (apart from the Wikipedia page) are school related sites' and an assessment of a substantial number of sources without proper consideration (If you only read the summaries 357 at 1 a second takes some doing). TerriersFan (talk) 23:39, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - WP:CIVIL: "This policy is not a weapon to use against other contributors. To insist that an editor be sanctioned for an isolated, minor offense... is itself disruptive, and may result in warnings or even blocks if repeated.". And you will find that my statement is correct. Google brings up 19000 results for Kentlake High School. Your link lists 357. Less than 2%. And of the 357 you listed, I have been reading them and can't find any so far that I'd include in any Wiki article. Find a good reason for keeping this article and I'll change from delete to keep. So far you haven't. Alan 16  talk  23:53, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: See the sources I have listed in my keep below. Cunard (talk) 00:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Redirect to school district and merge only material that is verified (rather than verifiable) through INDEPENDENT sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MacGyverMagic (talk • contribs) 22:43, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions.  —TerriersFan (talk) 22:46, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:NHS. All high schools are notable. TerriersFan's Google News Archive search proves that this school passes WP:ORG. Specifically, see this news article (Google cached link), this USA Today news article, this Seattle Post Intelligence article, this New York Times article, etc. Cunard (talk) 00:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if we can verify some sporting achievements of the school, that still leaves a considerable amount of the article unreferenced. We need more references about the school itself or compromise and write about the sports teams instead (rename) - Mgm|(talk) 08:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - WP:NHS is not Wikipedia policy and should not be treated as such. WP:ORG: "Trivial or incidental coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not sufficient to establish notability". And stating that those articles establish notability is debatable, as they establish notability for the sports team rather than the school as a whole. Alan 16  talk  01:14, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's an essay, but WPSCHOOLS generally finds something of merit, so the consensus has been that high schools stay, and pre-high schools get merged unless there is something truly notable. tedder (talk) 01:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * So what's the difference between pre-high schools and high schools? You're using two measuring sticks here. - Mgm|(talk) 08:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - "This essay contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. Essays may represent widespread norms or minority viewpoints. Heed them or not at your own discretion.". Can you prove WP:NHS is the consensus? It is a mistake to assume it is. Alan 16  talk  01:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:NHS, OUTCOMES, and WP:SCH are close enough to a consensus for me. tedder (talk) 02:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Absurdly, you claim consensus when WP:SCH starts: "This proposal has failed to attain consensus within the Wikipedia community. A failed proposal is one for which a consensus to accept is not present after a reasonable amount of time, regardless of continuing discussion.". It appears that there is not the consensus people on here would like me to believe, yet it is also seems that people are set in there ways. What is most annoying though is that people keep on talking about WPs and not about the article in discussion. Will you please point out what is notable in the Kentlake High School article? Alan 16  talk  02:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep per Cunard's research. tedder (talk) 01:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - WP:WPSCHOOLS is not Wikipedia policy. And Cunard's research shows notability for the schools sports teams, not the school itself. Also, everyone keeps citing WPs, yet nobody has pointed out a reason for keeping this article. There are exceptions in every generalisation, which is what WP:NHS and WP:WPSCHOOLS are. Just because most school articles are notable enough, it doesn't mean this one is. Can someone find something notable in this article? Alan 16  talk  01:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep WP:NHS is about the consensus in Wikipedia: All high schools can be assumed to be notable. -- J mundo 01:33, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a typical close for AfD for a high school article, the criteria for inclusion is that independent sources are available to verify the existence of the school. -- J mundo 01:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - The existence of the school is not in question. And people in your link are making the same mistake you and others are making here. You are saying that it should be kept because most high schools are notable. I am saying that this one is not. Can you point out what in this article is at all notable? Alan 16  talk  01:55, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep It should be kept because we keep all high school articles when we have minimal information to show the identity and real existence of the school.  This is due to the reasonable assumption that there will always be sources if looked for properly, and 90% of the time there will be--and I suspect the other 10% when Google News Archive gets more local papers. If we went one at a time, we'd probably make 20% errors. The reason we haven't gotten a formal policy on schools is because it takes a supermajority, and a few determined people can prevent it. There have always been one or two people trying to say all schools at whatever level are notable, and one or two trying to say the opposite.  Fortunately, they can not block things indefinitely, because at afd where we must make a decision, its what we do here that establishes the practical policy and the interpretation. These articles are now always kept. The only exceptions in the last year or so have been where there is no reliable or unvandalized content. When I came here 2.5 years ago we had long bitter discussions over every single school, one at a time, sometimes 10 a day.  The results were quite erratic, and nobody really thought they were rational. it took a disproportionate amount of time, and yielded bad decisions.  I can't see going back to that chaos. May we establish similar compromise solutions in all areas!  (we have in some: formal policy on shopping malls has been blocked by  very few people refusing to compromise in either directions, but what we do here afd is pretty consistent & amounts to the compromise.) We even seem to be compromising on some fields of athletics. Next one up for compromise, I hope: fictional characters, when people in general finally lose patience with the hold-outs at both extremes.   DGG (talk) 03:21, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * We don't need a separate rule that makes a sweeping generalization when we've already got WP:GNG. Good topic-specific guidelines mention subject properties that everyone agrees makes a subject notable: multiple reliable independent sources, awards, holding a record for being the oldest, largest, etc in a field and so on... - Mgm|(talk) 08:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Well done DGG, you have written a nice big paragraph, and let me tell you, it looks convincingly useful. Why do you (and others) keep talking about the existence of the school? Just because it exists, doesn't mean it deserves a Wikipedia article - it surely has to be notable? Can you do what you didn't in that ramble, and tell me what in this article is notable? Alan 16  talk  13:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep per DGG. Wonderful explanation; I agree with you wholly. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  04:34, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - "Wonderful explanation"? Are you serious? He/She said nothing of importance in specific to this article. It was the biggest load of stuff I've ever read. Alan 16  <sup style="color:DarkGreen;">talk  22:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep per Cunard's sources and DGG's arguments. Salih  ( talk ) 08:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * DGG was talking about historical context on this debate and not the article that's up for discussion. - Mgm|(talk) 08:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - as Mgm said. Everyone here seems to be talking about generalisations, and not the actual article that is up for discussion. Almost none of you have attempted to prove notability in this article! Alan 16  <sup style="color:DarkGreen;">talk  13:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep - we can delete this article once all the articles in List of high schools in Washington and Category:Lists of schools in the United States and Category:Lists of schools by country are gone through one by one and there "normalcy" is established, as is stated in at least one AFD debate I have seen, local notability is still notability, just because it may seem "normal" (I use quotes because no one has defined what is normal) to some but to others this High School could be extremely important or groundbreaking. If you delete this article a precedent will be set in which all articles of the category Category:Lists of schools by country will be judged, there are over 3000 articles under the lists in this category, in short it would be a administrative nightmare. ) EDIT: I withdraw those portions of my arguement per the comment by User:Alan16 below

I find the following statements notable for a high school


 * In February 2000 Chief Judge John Coughenour ordered the school to reinstate a student who had been suspended for creating an unofficial school website at home. He said that the school did not have the authority to punish students for exercising their freedom of speech outside of school. This has been described as an important case testing free speech.


 * Kentlake is a school of more than 2,000 students -making it large enough that people should know about it


 * Kentlake is one of the few schools to offer college credit courses such as marketing, oriented towards preparing students for the business world, as well as a CNA class which prepares students for the CNA test and explain the science of health and human biology.

why are those fully cited statements not considered notable?

being of 2000 students the high school is relevant to the local community, giving it local notability it is a high school in a public school district in the state of washington giving it notability at a state wide level

this is like discussing the notability of an extremely tiny town... -- GoldMan60  ¤  Talk  22:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - I'm sorry, but I think that is the worst reason for keeping an article I have ever heard - it seriously worries me about the future of the Website that someone will resort to keep because they fear that there may be a lot of work to do if they go delete. Alan 16  <sup style="color:DarkGreen;">talk  22:33, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment/adding to my SECOND POINT "A broad-consensus has emerged that all school district articles are notable; few such articles are proposed for deletion, and only a small fraction have ever reached a consensus for deletion. Among schools themselves, few middle schools, and fewer elementary schools have been able to generate articles that demonstrate the characteristics that are likely to establish a consensus of notability.
 * While all schools are frequently important to their communities, it is high schools that are most often the subject of the sort of verifiable and reliable published sources that are specified in Wikipedia'a guidelines on establishing notability. Wikipedia articles about high schools very often have available to editors the press coverage of the school — and awards the school has received, and the achievements of it sports teams, extracurricular groups and alumni — to allow for the creation of a complete article that will reach a consensus of notability."
 * High Schools
 * "We NEVER delete high school articles on the basis of notability, because through an exhaustive series of attempts at doing so, over a very long period of time, EVERY high school inevitably is found to easily meet the primary retention criteria of WP:N. High schools are the sort of a central institution within a community that inherantly generates news, and as such through a sufficient search of archives can be shown to be notable. It is a matter of convenience to preassume them to be notable to avoid unnecessary deletion discussions that NEVER result in deletion. There is ample precedent to summarily dismiss deletion nominations for high schools."
 * Notability (high schools)
 * and a quick questions, what about the second point I made about notability?
 * -- GoldMan60  ¤  Talk  22:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Like many others, you have cited two essays, 1 and 2, as if they were Wikipedia policy - they are not, and should not be treated as such. Your points on notability - A school being attended by 2000 pupils does not make it notable, an incredibly minor court case is not enough for notability as Notability states that there needs to be sustained reference to an organisation to constitute notability, not just the one case, and courses do not make a school notable. Alan 16  <sup style="color:DarkGreen;">talk  22:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep High schools are inherently notable. Edward321 (talk) 02:40, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - but what is notable about this school? Alan 16  <sup style="color:DarkGreen;">talk  03:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - per Notability (high schools) C 21 K <em style="font family:Verdana; color:Black">talk  13:34, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Notability (high schools) is an essay, and not Wikipedia policy and it should not be treated as such. Alan 16  <sup style="color:DarkGreen;">talk  17:00, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep per Notability (high schools) and my standards, NY Times citation, national rankings, etc. Bearian (talk) 19:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.