Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kentucky Equality Federation v. Beshear


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__ to Same-sex marriage in Kentucky. Those arguing to keep provide some evidence of SIGCOV, but this coverage isn't so voluminous that it obviously necessitates a standalone article, and no explicit argument has been provided as to why the material cannot be covered at the parent article. Vanamonde (Talk) 22:31, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Kentucky Equality Federation v. Beshear

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

This is one of a WP:Walled garden of articles related to Jordan Palmer (social activist). He has claimed credit for bringing same-sex marriage to Kentucky based on his involvement with this case. As I understand it, though, Bourke v. Beshear was the key Kentucky marriage case. gnu 57 00:07, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Law, Sexuality and gender,  and Kentucky. gnu 57  00:08, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I nominated the Palmer article for deletion also; it relies on primary sources or a few press releases. That doesn't help notability here either, but doesn't affect the !vote. Oaktree b (talk) 00:53, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Not accurate. It CLEARLY lists newspaper articles. Commonwealth1333 (talk) 16:32, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Two newspaper articles and four or more press releases and primary sources. It does not have a larger number of newspaper articles. I'm sorry, but 4 is the larger number and I stand by my statement. Oaktree b (talk) 03:48, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The C-J is part of USA Today now, and most of the staff has changed, or downsized because it is sadly dying industry, the same with the Herald-Leader. The Herald-Leader has also had lots of data loss from changes serves to AWS, etc. and a lot of information has been lost forever. The same is true with the Courier-Journal. I have an account with both, and articles are completely gone because of management and server changes. I honestly didn't know I still had an account with both newspapers because it is digital only, but even I do not recall the last time I read anything they published.
 * The Kentucky Post (the domain is now owned by a TV station) and the Kentucky Enquirer are gone (Northern KY) and even EthicsDaily.com which this news article originally referenced (https://news.kyequality.org/2006/12/anti-gay-christians-miss-message.html) are also gone and forwards to another site.
 * I was at a protest with Jordan Palmer in the early 2000's before that organization was founded; with Fletcher was governor. To make things worse, the Herald Leader used blogs for their top journalists (now gone except for Bill Estep), but the blogs did not survive the transfers (https://bsky.app/profile/BGPolitics this is what is goes to now). Even LEO Weekly does not have articles older than 2014. So, I am done with it. I think this is why the backed-up news on their own, so that it is preserved.
 * They can do whatever they want to do with the articles in question. My nieces and nephews, in their early 20's have no idea what Wikipedia is nor have they ever read a newspaper, sadly they get their news on TikTok and YouTube's "shorts". This is the end for me and Wikipedia, because it really is getting harder to find sources because of the loss of reporters, and that makes meeting current standards nearly impossible, but does that also mean the history should be deleted? That is for you all to decide. Thank you and all the best to you. Commonwealth1333 (talk) 20:58, 12 October 2023 (UTC)


 * No. Kentucky Equality Federation and Jordan Palmer was a state level case and a critical one because all state judges dismissed challenges to the 2004 Constitutional Amendment. This is the only case that made it through trail. On a federal level, Obergefell v. Hodges recognized same-sex unions, which Jordan Palmer also filed a friend of the court brief on. However, Judge Wingate in Franklin Circuit Court had already ruled that "the rights and freedoms of individuals cannot be usurped, even in the largest majority as granted under the constitution of this Commonwealth." This case is the principal reason Republicans no longer wanted to use the state's seat of government for constitutional cases, and they no longer do. Please KNOW Kentucky LGBT history before nominating anything for deletion. Commonwealth1333 (talk) 16:27, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Knowing WP:RS and WP:N are important for whether or how a subject is covered in the Wikipedia. As someone who does know a lot about Kentucky LGBT history (and many other subjects covered in the Wikipedia), I can clearly state that that knowledge isn't the controlling factor whether an article stays or not. At any rate, this AfD is a process, not a pre-ordained decision. As long as the process was started in good faith, and I believe it has been, Wikipedians are expected to make their case based on policy and guidelines whether the article stays. Having been a Wikipedian for nearly 20 years, I can assure you that casting aspersions on fellow participants does exactly nothing for any case. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 01:47, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
 * And it actually lowers the chances that the person making the statements will be taken as a valid AfD participant. Continuing to do so can lead to disciplinary sanctions if we aren't here to build an encyclopedia. Let's keep it friendly please, we all understand how important the subject of the article is. Oaktree b (talk) 14:44, 4 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Same-sex marriage in Kentucky, where it is already mentioned. I can't find any sources beyond what is already in the article. Not enough to meet GNG. Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 19:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Lots of comments but please stay focus on what should happen with this article. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:46, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Newspapers are going under at a record pace. This article has been unedited for over a decade and just because the cited newspapers are now out of business, the article is still valid. Commonwealth1333 (talk) 00:26, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
 * A newspaper's article from the time of this event should be findable (like via the Wayback Machine), whether or not the newspaper remains in business. There is really no reason this AfD can't be responded to with WP:RS (to demonstrate WP:N) if they ever existed. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 01:39, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Not true. The Northern Kentucky newspaper(s), Northern Kentucky Journal, and the Boone County Journal cannot be found anyplace. However, some coverage from the Louisville Courier Journal and the Lexington Herald Leader have been added. Commonwealth1333 (talk) 23:25, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It's almost certain that multiple libraries will have microfiche. &mdash;siro&chi;o 08:35, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It's very likely true if these newspapers were online at the time. However, if not, newspapers.com or libraries can be consulted. Overall, though, if you believe particular coverage happened in particular newspapers at particular times, please feel free in providing pointers to where editors can look. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 02:08, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep. This subject meets WP:GNG.
 * 1) From the article, SIGCOV of the filing of this lawsuit
 * 2) Not yet in article, SIGCOV of the start of the trial (ProQuest metadata confirms this is the trial in question )
 * 3) From the article, SIGCOV of the opinion and outcome of this trial.
 * &mdash;siro&chi;o 08:53, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The first and last ones look good. #2 is a different case. I'm still not convinced there is enough here to warrant a separate article. Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 19:03, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * https://kentuckyequality.org/news/kentucky-equality-federation-sues-the-commonwealth-of-kentucky-for-marriage-equality/, https://www.slideshare.net/kjoshuakoch/governor-beshear, https://www.facebook.com/KYEquality/photos/p.10153373501693563/10153373501693563/?type=1, and the Courier-Journal also referenced the case. Commonwealth1333 (talk) 19:43, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting. Also, User:Commonwealth1333 is arguing Keep even though they didn't cast a vote. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 00:54, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to the "same sex marriage in Kentucky" article, there are some mentions of this legal case, but nothing substantial that I see. Should be adequately covered in the article about same sex marriages in the state. Oaktree b (talk) 14:42, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * I have never voted and did not receive the notice to vote. But, my final comments on this are as I told another user:
 * The C-J is part of USA Today now, and most of the staff has changed, or downsized because it is sadly dying industry, the same with the Herald-Leader. The Herald-Leader has also had lots of data loss from changes serves to AWS, etc. and a lot of information has been lost forever. The same is true with the Courier-Journal. I have an account with both, and articles are completely gone because of management and server changes. I honestly didn't know I still had an account with both newspapers because it is digital only, but even I do not recall the last time I read anything they published.
 * The Kentucky Post (the domain is now owned by a TV station) and the Kentucky Enquirer are gone (Northern KY) and even EthicsDaily.com which this news article originally referenced (https://news.kyequality.org/2006/12/anti-gay-christians-miss-message.html) are also gone and forwards to another site.
 * I was at a protest with Jordan Palmer in the early 2000's before that organization was founded; with Fletcher was governor. To make things worse, the Herald Leader used blogs for their top journalists (now gone except for Bill Estep), but the blogs did not survive the transfers (https://bsky.app/profile/BGPolitics this is what is goes to now). Even LEO Weekly does not have articles older than 2014. So, I am done with it. I think this is why the backed-up news on their own, so that it is preserved.
 * They can do whatever they want to do with the articles in question. My nieces and nephews, in their early 20's have no idea what Wikipedia is nor have they ever read a newspaper, sadly they get their news on TikTok and YouTube's "shorts". This is the end for me and Wikipedia, because it really is getting harder to find sources because of the loss of reporters, and that makes meeting current standards nearly impossible, but does that also mean the history should be deleted? Commonwealth1333 (talk) 20:57, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Final relist. Just a note, if this article is not Kept, it looks like it will be turned into a Redirect which means the content would be preserved, just in the page history. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:45, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Same-sex marriage in Kentucky per WP:RS and WP:BALANCE. There's just enough coverage for the treatment it gets in the redirected-to article, but far from enough to merit its own article. I am unable to find any useful source beyond what Siroxo has listed. Also, I was aware and around these parts when all this was happening, and the coverage I most recall was from the organization itself, typically via social media. Bourke v. Beshear this is not. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 05:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, there absolutely is. https://kentuckyequality.org/news/kentucky-equality-federation-sues-the-commonwealth-of-kentucky-for-marriage-equality/, https://www.slideshare.net/kjoshuakoch/governor-beshear, https://www.facebook.com/KYEquality/photos/p.10153373501693563/10153373501693563/?type=1, and the Courier-Journal also referenced the case. Commonwealth1333 (talk) 19:42, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * We're already aware of the C-J coverage. The other sources provided there don't count toward inclusion. Also, having a couple secondary sources (one for filing, one for opinion) isn't enough for a standalone article, but as I said, it is enough for coverage in a broader article. And that's why it's best this becomes a redirect. Stefen Towers among the rest!   Gab • Gruntwerk 20:06, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Redirect to Same-sex marriage in Kentucky per StefenTower's reasoning. Best, GPL93 (talk) 21:16, 20 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.