Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kern, Alaska


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Stifle (talk) 09:31, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Kern, Alaska

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I can't find any other references mentioning the existence of Kern, Alaska other than the Ghosttowns.com reference, which I believe is not WP:RS. I was in Alaska recently and drove around these coordinates looking for anything like what was described and saw nothing. There was no sign from the highway posting 'Kern.' At the very least I think we need more WP:RS to verify that this is real. Between Google Scholar and Google Books, I'm not seeing anything. Scarpy (talk) 20:39, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Alaska-related deletion discussions. Scarpy (talk) 20:46, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 21:25, 16 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment. In addition to the reference currently in the article, I have found several other sources verifying its existence. It is mentioned in a book of hearings of the U.S. Congress, and several other government documents: . MarkZusab (talk) 22:31, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment GNIS identifies this as a locale: "Place at which there is or was human activity; it does not include populated places, mines, and dams (battlefield, crossroad, camp, farm, ghost town, landing, railroad siding, ranch, ruins, site, station, windmill)." Looking at the other stops along the railroad, I'm not convinced that people having once panned for gold there is notability as a town though. Reywas92Talk 02:36, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment to walk back just a bit -- there's a January 1947 article that describes it as a station. . - Scarpy (talk) 03:18, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * {I was asked on my talk page to comment here, but I do not believe it constituted canvassing) I see I'm late to the party on mentioning the GNIS entry, but that is a reliable source, and it says it is a flag stop on the railroad and nothing more. Delete alternate suggestion below . Beeblebrox (talk) 03:45, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete per the Brox; fails the requirements of GEOLAND. ——  SerialNumber  54129  04:39, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment could this be a photo of the area from 1917 1914, right here on Commons? The lat and long would have to be different than what's in GNIS, but the mile marker for the railroad would be the same (e.g. this source lists it as 70.5, and the photo calls it 71. - Scarpy (talk) 00:17, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Correct data from photo is "circa 1914." - Scarpy (talk)


 * Delete – As I'm not at a library, I'm not in a position to find the source in question, though it could have been the tourist book sold by the Alaska Railroad explaining places along its route. As I recall, it stated that Kern was the northern terminus of the predecessor railways originating in Seward (the Commons file linked above explicitly mentions the Alaska Northern Railway), but it also called into question whether any trains ever ran there before the completion of the ARR.  The predecessor railways were never in a favorable financial position, and I seem to recall reading that the northern 20 miles of track were impassible due to mudslides and/or rockslides while under the jurisdiction of those railways.  The reason why the nominator never saw a sign or any other indications of life is because Kern Creek empties into Turnagain Arm through a culvert rather than under a bridge and because the creek valley is obscured by the railroad embankment.  All the sources brought to the table thus far, as well as Orth (Dictionary of Alaska Place Names, 1967), refer to it strictly as a stopping point of some sort on the railroad route;  in the days of section-based maintenance, there could also have been a section house there.  Because Wikipedia has slowly become a news site absorbed with today's or yesterday's trending topics in the media and is largely forgetting about reflecting the historical record, there is no article on the Turnagain Arm Gold Rush, just passing mentions in several other articles.  There is also no list of place names on the ARR route.  Both are notable topics which can be sourced reliably.  Both would also be the place to mention this topic instead of a standalone article. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions  04:55, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * it's good to see you back, and thanks for the Orth reference. This photo cleared up some of the confusion for me. The GNIS coordinates are southeast of where Kern Creek empties into the Turnagain Arm. Where I was looking was at those coordinates, rather than nearer to the creek. It's likely that I just got out at the wrong part of the highway. Either way, we can confirm that there were some human structures there as far back as 1914, and it would seem as early as 1911. - Scarpy (talk) 22:40, 18 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep Okay, I know this seems obnoxious, but the photo I found yesterday (see above comments) changed my mind and I did a bit of a rewrite today based on the WP:RS we have found so far and have access to. I feely guilty that I didn't search Wikimedia Commons first, especially since it looks like it was just uploaded in April of 2019. I'm apologizing now. - Scarpy (talk) 22:43, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep A bit of WP:OR on my part, but Kern is presented as a settlement on historical topological maps of the area, and populated places are generally inherently notable. SportingFlyer  T · C  13:07, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Wikipedia is a gazetteer and unincorporated communities/ghost towns are considered notable-I added a citation to the article: Kern Topo Map in Anchorage AK-thank you-RFD (talk) 15:39, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge to as-yet-unwritten article Slightly surprised that Bird Point, Alaska is a redlink, was going to suggest merging there as that is apparently where this is. There's a few homes and businesses there as I recall, and it is a very popular place for tourists to stop due to the views and the possibility of spotting Dall sheep, there's a Forest Service Campground and good fishing it Bird Creek (Alaska) also a redlink. I feel like we could have one article on Bird Point that covered all three of these topics, with appropriate redirects of course. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:38, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I was commenting based on the image mentioned above, but looking at an actual map these two spots ae on opposite sides of Girdwood so not really the same place. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:54, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep. Per RFD. Wikipedia aspires to extreme completeness when it functions as a gazetteer. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006.   (talk) 00:13, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   20:58, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I know I've been kind of all over the place in this discussion, so for the record, having re-reviewed above comments and sources, I still don't see any clear indication that this was ever anything more than a flagstop on the railroad. A couple of shacks is not a town, even in Alaska. I agree with RK that a suitable merge target is a better solution as it simply doesn't merit a stand-alone article. Unfortunately a suitable merge target is not obvious at this time. This obviously is from the gold rush era as that is the only time in AK history that "this is this far from Sunrise" was a piece of important data, and I agree that a new article on that era that mentions this and other transitory, marginally notable locations would be best, but I can't make anyone write it. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:52, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep - As an unincorporated community or ghost town it is notable in the same way that a beauty pageant winner from fifty years ago is considered to be notable, even though now an old crone. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:38, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. Seems to have existed and notable per WP:GEOLAND. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:36, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. notable per WP:GEOLAND. Once GNG always GNG, even if it is not longer there.  Lubbad85   (☎) 21:00, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not necessarily arguing to delete but I don't see how one can say "per WP:GEOLAND" and leave it at that, when it makes it clear there is not automatic notability for unrecognized populated places, and such things are decided on a case-by-case basis. It therefore seems like circular reasoning to say that that policy is enough to justify keeping this. It certainly does not say "if you can prove it existed that's enough" which seems to be what is implied by several of the keep comments. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:51, 27 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep. It is worth Wikipedia providing definitive info on this once-populated place vs. Girdwood vs. Bird Point (which don't have articles), although I wouldn't mind move/rename/merger/combination being implemented later by any editor who properly, definitively sorts these out and makes judgment about best presentation.  Also, the "old crone" remark is funny tho perhaps not perfectly PC. :) --Doncram (talk) 22:32, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Kern, Alaska on a historical topological maps of the area, and populated places hopefully eligible for notable. --Nahal (talk) 02:50, 30 May 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.