Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kevin Belingon (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. While he might fail WP:MMABIO, there is no consensus whether he also fails WP:GNG, with delete !voters mostly only citing the former and not discussing the later. Any new nomination has to take into account that subjects can be notable even if they fail WP:MMABIO. SoWhy 14:43, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Kevin Belingon
AfDs for this article: 
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Subject is a MMA fighter. Fails WP:MMABIO as subject has not fought in tier one promotion.  CASSIOPEIA(talk) 22:48, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions.  CASSIOPEIA(talk) 22:53, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Philippines-related deletion discussions. <b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:80%;color:#FA0"> CASSIOPEIA</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 22:53, 16 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete As per nominator.PRehse (talk) 23:04, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep on the basis of ONE Championship - it may not be the UFC, but it's a pretty significant east-Asian tournament. Simonm223 (talk) 12:25, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment:  Subject fails Wikipedia MMA fighter notability guidelines - see WP:MMABIO. Thank you. <b style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:80%;color:#FA0"> CASSIOPEIA</b>(<b style="#0000FF">talk</b>) 13:21, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment: I certainly note that this is your interpretation as the nominator. I disagree with your interpretation. However I have said my piece and don't feel like debating here. Simonm223 (talk) 13:23, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment, It is not my interpretation, it is WikiProject Mixed martial arts guidelines for MMA fighter unde WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability - see WP:MMABIO that only fighters have fought 3 fights under tier one promotion (UFC or Invicta - see WP:MMATIER). Kindly refer to the links for your perusal. Thank you. 13:28, 17 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete Clearly fails to meet the long established notability criteria for MMA fighers at WP:NMMA. No evidence is given that he's a notable martial artist (see WP:MANOTE).  The routine coverage of his MMA fights does not show he meets WP:GNG. Papaursa (talk) 18:53, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Papaursa (talk) 20:59, 20 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Question Does the article, at its current state, pass WP:GNG? Howard the Duck (talk) 11:19, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I do not believe that this article meets WP:GNG and my reasoning is below the next comment. Papaursa (talk) 20:59, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
 * If someone somehow writes an article that passes WP:GNG, would that be enough? For example, if you can write an article about this person using this source, which, should more than enough satisfy WP:GNG, would that be good enough? Howard the Duck (talk) 23:54, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
 * You're talking about an article promoting his next fight and possible future fight in his drive to a second tier MMA title. I don't think it's enough to meet WP:GNG, but every editor needs to make his own decision. Papaursa (talk) 02:28, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't "promoting his next fight and possible future fight" be a gross oversimplification of that article though. I mean, it's extensive enough that I can use that entire article as five or more references in this article. I'd put this in a category of a full-fledged article about this person, not some routing coverage of his next fight, and perhaps a prospective fight in the future that may or may not happen. Howard the Duck (talk) 02:19, 23 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep Quick web search shows he meets the WP:GNG with non-trivial coverage in quite a few independent big name news sources. ABS-CBN "ONE: Kevin Belingon frustrates Martin Nguyen to become interim champion"; BusinessWorld "Kevin Belingon all in for ‘biggest bout’ of career"; The Philippine Star "Belingon itching for Bibiano rematch: 'There's no escaping me'; GMA Network "I can take Nguyen's right hand, knew his game plan – Kevin Belingon". --GRuban (talk) 16:55, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
 * All of these sources are routine sports reporting of results and pre-fight promotion for a second tier promotion's title fight. The article's sources are basically the type of coverage given to professional MMA fights all over the world.  When this article was previously deleted he was the champion of a second tier MMA promotion and he still is, but he has yet to fight at the highest level. Papaursa (talk) 20:59, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Then "routine" is a pretty high level of coverage, that meets the WP:GNG. There are captains of industry that would be thrilled to have this many articles about them. We've got hundreds of articles about association football players and Olympic medalists without nearly this much coverage. --GRuban (talk) 11:55, 21 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep Man I don't get it, why do people here in wikipedia consider ONE Championship a second tier promotion where in fact it's the BIGGEST MMA promotions in ASIA. I think the real debate here is not Belingon but i think it's on the side of ONE Championship. I have read some of the arguments against ONE Promotions, and its only 1 thing and that is they lack on well-known and highly rank fighters. Kevin Belingon is a well-known fighter because of multiple media publications about him. But not a Top rated Fighter according to many MMA rankings because he fights on an outside western country promotions if he fights on UFC he will be easily on the Top 10 no doubt about it.

But currently there is NO independent MMA Rankings which covers all the MMA fighters around the globe and I would love to hear about it(if there's any), and we all know that there is NO independent World MMA Title to Fight on unlike Boxing were 4 independent organizations offer world championship titles. Any rich businessmen can create there own MMA promotions and get several high tier fighters, Top Rank for example can create a MMA promotions and MMA Title with the right MONEY to lure high ranking MMA fighters from multiple ranking publications to come to them, even Super Star Mayweather can create his own too. So I think that this should not be a standard basis of considering what Top tier MMA Promotions are, I think we should add the most important of all (Cultural and Influential Impact of the Organization for the Sport like "What did the promotion contributed to the MMA?","How did the organization help the fighters?","Did it improve the MMA scene in the region?","Did the MMA Promotion influence the economic, political and cultural identity of society on its region?) and so on. (i hope i'm making sense on this but yah.)

And ONE Championship has already made HISTORY not just here in the South East Asia and ASIA but the whole world, it has a large pool of fan base bigger than other top tier mma promotions, the GLOBAL media outlets are talking about ONE MMA, fight fans around the globe known ONE Championship, MMA is flourishing in South East Asia because of ONE Championship., and maybe they the ONE Championship will revamp the dying Japan MMA scene. ONE MMA has molded the future generations of MMA practitioners in Asia generally speaking, ONE has built the foundation of what might happen next on the promotions of MMA (like: show casing different martial arts in 1 fight card, (Grappling Only Match-up, Kick Boxing Muay Thai and now Boxing). and yet people disregard ONE MMA promotions as if it only exist in an unknown part of the world. They made several events on several countries and distributed it to influenced an estimate 1.7 billion people around the globe. And it's on business after 7 years and many more to come. You can't disregard someones achievement because he just fought on so called 2nd tier organization, even if the fights fans knows who is he, where he fights and who is he fighting. I believe this are the basis of why I firmly nominate ONE Championship to be promoted to Top Tier Organization and even if i fail to convince you my fellow Wikipedians on this one. ONE Championship and the people who supported it, have already made a significant mark on the global sports landscape. (English is not my first language, my deepest apologies on my mistakes and if you guys need sources, i will provide it later on but for now sorry)Dragonxtx (talk) 20:27, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Consensus about the notability of MMA organizations has been discussed in dozens, if not hundreds, of threads going back nearly a decade and they can be found in the archives at WT:MMA and WT:MMANOT. To summarize, an organization's notability is essentially based on how many world top 10 fighters they have (and they should be spread across the different weight classes).  By consensus, the rankings at sherdog.com are used and there's been a belief that to be considered among the best you must fight the best, which is why MMA fighter notability is based on appearing in organizations that have the top fighters.  I can tell you that reaching a consensus for MMA notability involved a lot of heated and sometimes nasty discussions.  I just looked at the rankings for bantamweights and no one from One FC was listed, although Kyoji Horiguchi from Rizin is ranked 8th.  It may also be worth considering (as an indicator of ONE's strength) that Belingnon has only 1 victory over a WP notable fighter and that was in Koetsu Okazaki's last fight (in other words a fighter not in his prime). Papaursa (talk) 01:49, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I like the MMA method of determining who gets automatic notability, because after all this is what it is (other sports do the same). Those who do not qualify are not automatically disqualified for an article, as long as the article passes WP:GNG. Howard the Duck (talk) 02:23, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Er: "an organization's notability is essentially based on how many world top 10 fighters they have... By consensus, the rankings at sherdog.com are used..." What? You are arguing that our Notability guideline is based on a list maintained at a minor commercial web site? No. Just no. --GRuban (talk) 15:12, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I would agree that effectively out-sourcing our notability guidelines for a sport to Sherdog is not the best idea ever. Simonm223 (talk) 17:09, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Pretty standard over the years for combat sports including boxing and kickboxing.PRehse (talk) 17:21, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Just because a thing has been done a certain way is not a reason to keep doing it that way. That said I think this is not the appropriate venue to debate the merits of overall project notability guidelines so I'll shut up on this now. Simonm223 (talk) 18:01, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Asia-related deletion discussions. <i style="font-family:'Rock salt','Comic Sans MS'; color: Green;">Tyw7</i> (🗣️ Talk) — If (reply) then (ping me) 01:45, 24 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep. While it appears he fails the guidelines under WP:MMABIO, he seems more than referenced enough for WP:GNG. The WP:MMABIO may need revision or discussion, but this is not the forum for that. Ifnord (talk) 16:44, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment On the basis of our conversations about revisions to WP:MMABIO I've started this thread to talk about that issue, linking it back to this AfD. Simonm223 (talk) 17:00, 24 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.