Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khalil Eljamal


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Ron Ritzman (talk) 13:59, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Khalil Eljamal

 * – ( View AfD View log ) •

Ultimately the subject was just another soldier killed in battle and appears to be non-notable per WP:MILMOS/N. It is also lacking in reliable sources and has POV problems. Anotherclown (talk) 07:14, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions.  —Anotherclown (talk) 07:17, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete: I don't think being the first casualty in an undefined battle is enough notability. The heavy POV issues clinch it for me (I was originally planning a "weak delete").  bahamut0013  words deeds 13:44, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Weak keep: changed my vote because of Tiamut's (go dragons!) and Nableezy's work demonstrate that there was more to it than just being the first casualty. His death was used more or less for propagandic purposes, much like Ernst vom Rath's assassination prompted Kristallnacht (no comparisons of the Middle East situation to the Holocaust is meant, of course). It's a bit tenuous for notability, but I think it's enough.  bahamut0013  words deeds 16:42, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree. Anotherclown (talk) 20:19, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete: per nominator, this does not seem any more notable to me than any other casualty in a war. Thus the coverage would need to be "significant" for it to satisfy the WP:GNG and I don't believe it is in this case. AustralianRupert (talk) 13:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep: due to the sources that have been added to the article. AustralianRupert (talk) 11:18, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions.  — bahamut0013  words deeds  14:02, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lebanon-related deletion discussions.  — bahamut0013  words deeds  14:02, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions.  — bahamut0013  words deeds  14:02, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't know if this person is notable or not. There seem to be no significant coverage of this person in English sources. I cannot judge sources in other languages. One source given seems to be a forum thread, and another is a broken link. There is no article on the Battle of Tel Arbaein, which is the single event for which this person may be notable. Also, the article seems to be written from a non neutral point of view and needs a rewrite (not a reason for deletion though). Marokwitz (talk) 14:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete. The article does not establish any notability for its subject. It also happens to be grossly POV and badly sourced. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 14:45, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete as non-notable. Just one individual combatant who died in a decades-long conflict, and tragic though each individual loss of life is (as is the whole conflict itself), just dying in conflict is not sufficiently notable. The only GHit on quoted "Battle of Tel Arbaein" is this article, and though there are hits on the unquoted phrase, it's hard to believe this is a notable "battle" rather than just one of many villages in which fighting took place. The horribly "hero worship" tone strongly suggests it is not objective. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:13, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Change to  Probable Keep, based on the sources found - but it does desperately need rework and the much better quality of the article now . -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:52, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. Perhaps people are unfamiliar with the variations in transliterating Arabic names. Doing a google Book search for "Khalil al-Jamal" brings up 29 hits . I've added two sources to the bibliography that suppport the high attendance at his funeral (150,000 in a country of a couple of million is a pretty big deal). It is true the article needs work but the guy is notable. PS. I moved the title to the name Khalil al-Jamal since that is the most common transliteration.  T i a m u t talk 18:00, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is he notable Tiamut? The article simply states that he was the "the first Lebanese commando to be killed in action in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict". Do we have articles for the first American killed in the Vietnam War, the first Australian killed in World War I or the first Askari killed fighting the Germans in East Africa in 1914? (I could go on...) Of course we do not. IMO this clearly fails the notablity threshold set out in WP:MILMOS/N which ascribes notability to individuals that:


 * 1) Were awarded their nation's highest award for valour; or
 * 2) Were awarded their nation's second-highest award for valour (such as the Navy Cross) multiple times; or
 * 3) Held a rank considered to be a flag or general officer, or their historical equivalents; or
 * 4) Held the top-level military command position of their nation's armed forces (such as Chief of the General Staff), or of a department thereof (such as Chief of Army Staff); or
 * 5) Played an important role in a significant military event; or
 * 6) Commanded a notable body of troops in combat; or
 * 7) Made a material contribution to military science that is indisputably attributed to them; or
 * 8) Were the undisputed inventor of a form of military technology which significantly changed the nature of or conduct of war; or
 * 9) Were recognised by their peers as an authoritative source on military matters/writing.

For the purposes of these criteria, a "substantial body of troops" refers to a capital ship, a division or larger formation, or their historical equivalents. Anotherclown (talk) 20:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi Anotherclown. I think he's notable because he meets the general WP:N guideline. His death is mentioned in 29 books published in the English langage, mostly from academic presses. And there is heavy coverage of him in Arabic language media reports. Note that the WP:MILMOS/N states: "In general, an individual is presumed to be notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple verifiable independent, reliable sources. In particular, an individual will almost always have sufficient coverage to qualify if they: ..." and then the things you listed above. I take that to mean that if a person meets WP:N then that's enogh to warrant an article. Perhaps for the military history project the criteria is more specific. But this person is notable not primarily for his contribution to military history, but for his effect on political developments in the region - his death constituting an important event in Lebanese and Palestinian political histories, as recorded by reliable academic secondary English language sources.  T i a m u t talk 13:09, 1 December 2010 (UTC)


 * By the way, he has in act received a national medal of honor posthumously, issued by the then Prime Minister of Lebanon, so he does in fact meet the particular notability criteria for the military history project and not just the WP:GNG. I hope you will change your vote accordingly.  T i a m u t talk 18:17, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you please add which medal he recieved? Thanks. Anotherclown (talk) 20:11, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The source cited only says "a national medal" awarded by the Prime Minister. I'll try to find more info about which medal it is specifically, but I don't think his notability hinges on what kind of medal it is. There is enough coverage in reliable sources to warrant an article regardless.  T i a m u t talk 06:35, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps not a war-stopper as you say, but if the information is available I think it should be included. Regardless any assertion that that fact that he was awarded a 'national medal' makes him notable (as you say above), clearly does rest on what medal it was as MILHIST notability guidelines only ascribe automatic notablity to those awarded their nation's highest award, e.g. the Victoria Cross or the Medal of Honor (and their equivalents). Anotherclown (talk) 06:42, 2 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete Clear propaganda. HarunAlRashid (talk) 13:19, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I am planning to spend the coming few days to improve this article based on your comments and, hopefully, with your help, in its English as well as Arabic version. After that, I will leave it to you to decide on its fate as per the Wikipedian standards. AboluayTalk2me 17:32, 1 December 2010 (UTC).
 * Keep: I am the author of this article.
 * 1) I just translated it from the Arabic Wikipedia without alteration which I think is a mistake. I understand now that I need to follow a different standards with the English Wikipedia and I will be glad to do that. I think this will reflect positively on the Arabic article as well.
 * 2) Al Jamal death was a milestone in many respects, in Lebanon as well as in the Arab world. His death, and the massive participation in his funeral of the opposing parties, was the start of many political movements that universalized the Palestinian struggle across the Arab countries, and unfortunately, lead to the Lebanese civil war. Neither the article nor the references reflect this point. It is a mistake. I will try to fix them (in the English and the Arabic versions).
 * 3) Any article written about any aspect of the Israeli/Arab problem will be viewed as propaganda by one side or the other. I hope the Wikipedia have the tolerance to accept the point view of the other and exercise academic pressure to ensure the neutrality of the articles rather than mere deleting them.


 * Hi Aboluay. I'll try to help too (I've already added a few books and cleaned up a couple of sentences). I hope people will review the linked sources and reevaluate their position as WP:N is in fact met. Wiki articles don't have to be perfect to survive deletion (per WP:IMPROVE). Thank you for your contributions.  T i a m u t talk 17:42, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * All true, however in the article's previous state the POV was glaring and the notabilty was not and wikipedia should be very wary of such articles. That said I am prepared to change my vote if the final citations are added (especially the sentence about the significance of his death, which IMO the notability of this subject rests on). Anotherclown (talk) 20:25, 1 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep - subject has been covered in numerous reliable sources. Here is a sampling that I found in a very brief search:
 * As the subject is covered by multiple third party reliable sources, the subject meets the general notability guidelines.  nableezy  - 19:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes I can see that he is mentioned in quite a number of books, but the paucity of the biographical information included in the article suggests to me that these maybe passing mentions only (admittedly I haven't read the books listed). So I am left to question just how significant this coverage actually is. Anotherclown (talk) 20:44, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Enough that an article could be written on his death, his funeral, and the impact his death had on Lebanon. Ill see what I can find for other biographical material, but those sources may be in Arabic. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 20:49, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Cheers. I have to say that I am impressed with the effort that a number of users have put in to bringing this article up to standard. Well done so far to guys like Tiamut, yourself Nableezy and of course to the original author Aboluay who I must commend for his good nature through this process and the genuine efforts to improve the article. As I said above if the final citations can be added I'd be happy to see this article remain. Anotherclown (talk) 06:20, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Anotherclown. And I just wanted to say thanks for continuing to clean up the cites and other things in the article. Its nice to work with people whose primary concern is improving the encyclopedia.  T i a m u t talk 07:31, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As the subject is covered by multiple third party reliable sources, the subject meets the general notability guidelines. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 19:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes I can see that he is mentioned in quite a number of books, but the paucity of the biographical information included in the article suggests to me that these maybe passing mentions only (admittedly I haven't read the books listed). So I am left to question just how significant this coverage actually is. Anotherclown (talk) 20:44, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Enough that an article could be written on his death, his funeral, and the impact his death had on Lebanon. Ill see what I can find for other biographical material, but those sources may be in Arabic. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 20:49, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Cheers. I have to say that I am impressed with the effort that a number of users have put in to bringing this article up to standard. Well done so far to guys like Tiamut, yourself Nableezy and of course to the original author Aboluay who I must commend for his good nature through this process and the genuine efforts to improve the article. As I said above if the final citations can be added I'd be happy to see this article remain. Anotherclown (talk) 06:20, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Anotherclown. And I just wanted to say thanks for continuing to clean up the cites and other things in the article. Its nice to work with people whose primary concern is improving the encyclopedia.  T i a m u t talk 07:31, 2 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep, notable topic and well sourced. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:52, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Withdraw - As the original nominator I wish to withdraw this AfD given the work that has been done to improve the article. The topic is clearly more notable than it appeared in its original form, although I still feel it to be only marginal. Good work and thank you all. Anotherclown (talk) 20:19, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks :). I just looked at the article as it stood at the time of the nom, and I dont think anybody can blame you for questioning the notability given the sourcing and the difference in the transliteration in his name. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 01:57, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.