Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khitai (Conan)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:15, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Khitai (Conan)

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An article about a fictional country in the Conan the Barbarian universe. The article is entirely in-universe, describing only plot points, and contains no real world analysis or commentary. Searching for sources turns up plenty of hits, but looking into them, they are all pretty much entirely plot, and thus can not be used to support any sort of real world notability. Per WP:NOTPLOT and WP:FICT, articles on fictional elements need to show some sort of real world importance and can not just exist as plot summaries, and I'm not finding anything that would really help. The PROD was removed with the rationale that "The article has no references because there is little to no reference available on this topic", and that is a pretty clear indicator that it does not pass the GNG. Rorshacma (talk) 16:05, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I am the creator of this article. In my opinion it should not be deleted since Khitai is one of the major settings of Conan the barbarian series. Also it is the major setting of the rise of the godslayer expansion of age of conan. I agree this article has no references but this is because little to no reference is available on this is matter. Just because the sources are entirely plot it does not mean the article is false. Instead of proposing the article for deletion a notice should be put up on the page that the article does not have any references and if anyone can find them they should add it to the article. And Khitai does show some real world notability. I think you haven't even read the article carefully Rorshacma. I invite anyone interested to share their opinion on this matter. --MegaCyanide666 (talk) 08:42, 09 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No one accused the article of being false, just unnotable. And an article that has no available sources is the very definition of unnotable per the Wikipedia General Notability Guidelines (WP:GNG).  And I have read the article several times carefully, and I am still failing to see anything that discusses any real world notability at all.Rorshacma (talk) 16:10, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete, for a topic to have its own article, its notability in "the world at large" must be proven, and we measure that notability with the General Notability Guideline, which states that the topic must have received "significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject". For articles on elements of fiction, the policy (WP:NOTPLOT) is that they must not be "summary-only descriptions of works. Wikipedia treats fiction in an encyclopedic manner, discussing the reception and significance of notable works in addition to a concise summary". In other words, the focus of article should not be the fiction itself ie primary information (as it is in the Khitai article), but on its real world aspects through secondary information such as its development and creation, its reception among the public and critics and its hypothetical influence, as discussed in a sufficient number of independent sources. The current article, as noted by its creator, does not contain any coverage of this kind nor any independent source, and a search in Google Books and Google Scholar didn't bring any signficant result besides primary sources, showing the topic is not likely to ever be notable and thus to deserve its own article.Folken de Fanel (talk) 08:36, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You don't understand read the first para it tells that Khitai is inspired by china and the great wall of khitai is inspired by great wall of china. --MegaCyanide666 (talk) 11:04, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes but that trivia is not enough (besides being unsourced) to satisfy our notability requirements.Folken de Fanel (talk) 11:08, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * One thing even cimmeria, aquilonia and acheron do not have significant reliable sources. Would you delete them too just because of this? No. I advise you to have a little more humility and respect for others Rorshacma. If you want more real word notability I'll add more if you want. --MegaCyanide666 (talk) 11:10, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If other articles don't satisfy our notability requirement there is no reason they should be "spared", and if they do there is no reason to delete them. However right now we're not talking about other articles but about Khitai (Conan) and this one doesn't meet the criteria and is not likely to do so, which is why it went to AfD. Fair enough if you want to try to find real world notability, that is exactly what this discussion is for, but from my own search before I posted my comment, I don't think you will. I don't think Rorshacma has ever been disrespectful to you, you should not take this nomination personally, it's just normal wikipedia process and it isn't meant to be a judgement passed on you as contributor or anything like that, it just means that the article doesn't correspond to what we want for articles about fiction, but it may be more appropriate in other wiki-like encyclopedia like conan wikia. I don't see what "humility" would have to do with this, though...Folken de Fanel (talk) 11:25, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete for the lack of any references whatsoever. --Niemti (talk) 23:12, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - does not meet the general notability guideline, has no reliable sources and written from an in-universe perspective. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:24, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * There are many articles on Wikipedia that have no references and as I've told you Khitai is the setting of rise of the godslayer expansion for age of conan and one of the major settings of Conan The Barbarian franchise. And Niemti no body invited you to give your opinion. You're a bully. Just get the hell out of here sockpuppet if you don't want to get blocked again. --MegaCyanide666 (talk) 08:18, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * A reference has been added to the article and now it should not be deleted. Please take off your deletion notice right now. --MegaCyanide666 (talk) 08:45, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The reference you added is not enough, for an article to be notable you need "significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject" which discuss "reception and significance". One single source used for two sentences is really far from establishing notability (and I think it might even not be a reliable source). Please don't command anyone to remove the deletion notice, that won't happen. You have to let this discussion unfold, only consensus can determine if this article can be kept or not, and for now it doesn't look it's going to be kept, so try to look for more sources and build an article that can meet our notability guidelines. Taking a look at the Manual of Style for articles on fiction will probably help you.Folken de Fanel (talk) 11:28, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I would also argue that a blog entry on the website for a Conan fanzine would very likely not be a reliable source. At the very least, its reliability is so borderline that it alone is not enough to establish notability.  Not only that, but the information that it is being used to support, upon reading the article, is almost entirely comprised of fan theory.  As a side note, it may be useful to brush up on reading WP:Articles for Deletion to get a better understanding of how the process works, and the civility that is expected in these discussions.  No one needs to be "invited" to give their opinions in AFD discussions, and there is a normal process of when deletion notices will or will not be removed.  Rorshacma (talk) 15:24, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No it is and it's actually a reference for the whole article. I don't think the article should be deleted now. --MegaCyanide666 (talk) 10:11, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It's still not enough to pass the general notability guideline which requires "significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject".Folken de Fanel (talk) 10:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete Wikia has some wikis where in-universe adulation is encouraged, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia where topics have to satisfy WP:N. There is no indication that this topic has received significant coverage in independent secondary sources. Johnuniq (talk) 11:23, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Take a look at the Cimmeria article. It has only one reference. But it's not deleted it is still there and even the source is not independendent. The novels that had Khitai as a major setting were written maybe back in 1960s. How am I going to find sources about them? Oh one more thing while adding real world notability I have used the word 'maybe' in the article. I didn't state Khitai would have actually become China I used the word 'maybe'. --MegaCyanide666 (talk) 10:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * One more thing I'll like you to read the whole article on the reference for Khitai. I know it's long but probably after reading it completely and carefully it would probably change your opinion. --MegaCyanide666 (talk) 10:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not because other articles which don't meet the guidelines have not yet been deleted that you should infer they will never be or that they somehow have been accepted. They just haven't been discussed yet, but with your insistance on the matter I think that will come soon. As for your remark, The Lord of the Rings was published in the 1950s yet a significant amount of critical analysis has been written on it...if you consider it's impossible to find enough research and coverage on Khitai, then it means the subject doesn't deserve to have its own article, which is precisely the point of this AfD. Not every topic can make a good article on WP.Folken de Fanel (talk) 12:49, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What I actually mean is that these stories weren't popular enough like Lord of the rings and they were written way back even before Lord of the rings. According to Wiki the stories about Khitai were written in 1933. It would be impossible to find an independent source. Take the example of 'The Shire'. It does not even have any real world notability. But it's still there. And your'e deleting this one just because it isn't that popular and has very few sources. Also Khitai is in generic term not a nation it's an empire. --MegaCyanide666 (talk) 14:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Why is no one responding? If you don't respond till next week then I'll have to take off the notice from the aticle. --MegaCyanide666 (talk) 08:32, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm concerned, I'm not responding because you keep on arguing while ignoring what we said or the various guidelines and policies that have been explained to you. From your last comment, you don't even seem to have read WP:Notability. As for this discussion, a week after its start (that is, tomorrow), an administrator will come to close it and assess whether there is consensus to keep or delete the article. You are not to remove the notice from the article. Please read WP:CLOSEAFD to understand how AfDs are closed, and WP:AfD to see how an AfD works.Folken de Fanel (talk) 12:33, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Comment: I'd also like to propose to expand the result to the related articles of Acheron Empire, Aquilonia (Conan), Cimmeria (Conan), Stygia (Conan). All of them are similarily either completely unreferenced or practically unreferenced (using 1 or 2 unreliable sources), written in-universe, etc. Oh, and copy-pasted from Wikia: This article was also copy-pasted from Wikia (where it was written in 2008): --Niemti (talk)
 * Comment - Considering the AFD nomination did not include all of those article, and how late you are proposing to add them to this AFD, I think it is unreasonable to include them in the scope of this discussion. You are, of course, free to nominate them for deletion independent of this discussion. -- Whpq (talk) 16:41, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - I do not see the significant coverage about this fictional location that would establish notability. -- Whpq (talk) 16:44, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep and edit but do not delete - There are many articles about fictional locations of various fantasy series and many of them have no real world resemblance a for eg., The Shire from Lord of the Rings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MegaCyanide666 (talk • contribs) 10:40, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Shire (Middle-earth), while hardly perfect, has reliable third-party sources, notably Humphrey Carpenter for one of the inspirations. You should better listen to all We have very little in this section just yet. You can help Conan Wiki by adding something. notes in every single section of the Wikia original (which at least has no Randomly Capitalized section titles) and "keep and edit" there. --Niemti (talk) 10:59, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Exactly, "other stuff exists" is not a valid reason for conservation. MegaCyanide666's comment fails to answer concerns about notability and reliable sources, fails to provide a single policy-based argument, and thus per WP:AFDFORMAT should not be given as much weight as other opinions here.Folken de Fanel (talk) 11:26, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - Lack of independent and "out-of-universe" notability. The other articles, as Whpq said, shouldn't be deleted in this discussion, but could certainly be sent to AFD separately as well. Sergecross73   msg me   15:59, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.