Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khrystenn Asariah


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. The consensus of this debate is clear: despite his best endeavours, the article author has not demonstrated that Ms Asariah meets the notability standard for athletes, or is notable for any other reason. JohnCD (talk) 22:49, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Khrystenn Asariah

 * – ( View AfD View log )

She placed a mere fourth in a state championship. Other bio statements are either unsubstantiated and not likely ever to be substantioned from RS (e.g., that she's currently looking for a partner), substantiated only in campus publications, or supported only in non-RS material. Yakushima (talk) 16:00, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:ATHLETE. 4th in a state championship?  Not even close. Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  17:59, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete: best wishes at becoming notable though. --AerobicFox (talk) 23:13, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:33, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete - No coverage in reliable sources. Current athletic achievements fall short of what is needed for inclusion as an athlete. --- Whpq (talk) 14:49, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep Notable in several areas. Not just an athlete, needs further development. Had several other placements in other championships. US figure skating records are not easily accessible prior to certain dates. No reason to delete this page- shes got enough data out there on the web that supports and identifies her as notable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JPelligrino (talk • contribs) 23:37, 19 January 2011 (UTC) — JPelligrino (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment "Not just an athlete, needs further development"? By which you mean to concede that Khrystenn doesn't meet the notability requiresments for figure skaters (in )?  Then would you care to provide verification of her notability "in several other areas"?  Mere college student activity, no matter how brisk, doesn't count.  Mere mention in a publication of some kind doesn't count -- you need an article that's largely about the person, in a reliable source (by Wikipedia standards) to even start meeting the general notability guideline WP:GNG.  And, needless to say, if the article claims "[s]he was co-hostess on the TV-series Urban Living TV.[14]", but a search  of the source cited, reveals she's not even mentioned on the site, then this claimed accomplishment can't possibly count toward Khrystenn's notability -- after all, she wasn't even noted in the source cited.  Finally, one does not meet notability requirements on Wikipedia merely by being associated with somebody who does meet them (as claimed several times in this article, without substantiation in some cases).  If that were the case, I could have my own bio up there, simply by being the son of a  certain decidedly notable skater whose Wikipedia bio is somehow, um, significantly shorter than Khrystenn's? Yakushima (talk) 04:50, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 *  Keep  I'm the old yeller that helped create this article. After doing a little more research on wiki policy, I've been trying to update some former skaters and contribute more on the competitive scene. As a former U.S. figure skating judge, I had the pleasure of watching/judging Ms. Asariah on several occasions. She formerly was a singles skater (skated under a different name) and had quite the lustrous streak. The problem here is that U.S figure skating was slow to get on board with online results and figure skating has not always made it in big with the press (especally post Tonya/Nancy when interest began to dwindle). Prior to Ms.Asariah's competitive history dates are primarily on paper and archived back in the big ole books and I happen to have many copies the results pages myself. This page is noted as a stub and it needs to be improved through regular editing. This little lady has made quite the comeback and stride in skating and I look forward to watching her progress in ice dancing. Even more notably alongside her athletic successes are her athletic, theatrical, and musical achievements. -Jed JPelligrino (talk) — JPelligrino (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment - You have removed other editor's comments. That is not appropriate, and I have restored the comments.  You have also !voted twice.  You only need to state "Keep" in bold once.  I stricken the duplicated keep.  As to notability, you make assertions of notability, but provide no specifics.  Her athletic achievements as stated in the article do not rise to the level needed to meet the inclusion criteria.  Her career in the entertainment industry has not been covered in reliable sources.  -- Whpq (talk) 11:32, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I am not sure if this is the right format for doing this. I did remove two comments as I was reading on the deletion policy page about comments that are not relevant or appropriate and get personal. I am now curious where does it state athletic achievment requirements for skaters? I have seen several skaters on here with similar, if not less, athletic achievements in skating. In the skating world, Ms.Asariah's accomplishments are considered huge, and gained her quite the level of notability in her hey day. Skating is different from most other sports, and it is hard to know unless you have familiarity with that. Some of the invitations she received to national and international events are quite the big deal. As I stated earlier, the information needs further development assistance from others, which, over time will be added as I will continue to dig for more. These are simply 'highlights' of her overall career as a skater and not all inlcusive. I am also wondering, is she not miscategorized? -Jed — Preceding unsigned comment added by JPelligrino (talk • contribs) 17:28, 20 January 2011 (UTC)  — JPelligrino (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment Jed, you say the reason you removed two delete votes was that they were "not relevant or appropriate" and got "personal." One of those comments wished her luck in her career.  Under Assume Good Faith WP:AGF, you are supposed to assume that the comment was sincere.  The other comment said that placing fourth in a state competition was "not even close" to meeting the requirements for notability (implicitly, as a figure skater on Wikipedia).  Well, objectively (and that's what counts here), 4th in a state comp really is not even close -- see WP:ATHLETE.  Finally, in neither your edit summary nor any subsequent discussion here, until your deletion of votes was pointed out, was there any indication from you of why you did this - and if you had a problem with the comments of others, you should have pointed it out. Yakushima (talk) 05:40, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I also noticed in the policy that there is no official "voting" and that deletions are not based on this, and I simply made an attempt to further my comments. Thank you for the note. -Jed — Preceding unsigned comment added by JPelligrino (talk • contribs) 17:37, 20 January 2011 (UTC)  — JPelligrino (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment You did not "simply make an attempt to further" your comments. You deleted other people's comments. Yakushima (talk) 05:40, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment And if you found where AfD policy says that it's not strictly done by vote, you seemed to have missed what it says immediately afterward: "When making your case or responding to others, explain how the article meets/violates policy rather than merely stating that it meets/violates the policy." Your comments so far amount to what that policy discussion earlier characterizes as "a pattern of groundless opinion, proof by assertion, and ignoring content guidelines", which can be deemed "disruptive" if the pattern continues after the groundlessness, the mere assertions, and the content guidelines have been duly pointed out by more experienced editors. Yakushima (talk) 07:07, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Jed, you claim you've been actively updating skater articles. But aside from Khrystenn's article, you've only added  a mention of Khystenn to one article, and something that's hardly more than a mention of Khrystenn to another .  All that leaves is your edits to her bio, and edits with the purpose of saving it from deletion -- i.e., you're running (so far) a Single Purpose Account (WP:SPA) as JPelligrino. Yakushima (talk) 05:14, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment JP: "I have seen several skaters on here with similar, if not less, athletic achievements in skating." See WP:OTHERSTUFF -- that makes no difference.  In the case of skater bios, it's a problem I might be more aware of than most.  Around May of last year, word came down that there were too many unreferenced bios on Wikipedia.  In the course of saving maybe a few dozen skater bios from deletion by providing WP:RS sourcing, I ran across some skater bios that shouldn't have existed in the first place under WP:ATHLETE or WP:GNG.  But my priority at the time was to save the bios of notable skaters, not to delete the bios of non-notable ones. Name these skaters with "similar, if not less, athletic achievements", and I'll nominate those for deletion too, unless they happen to meet WP:GNG on other grounds. Yakushima (talk) 06:26, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment As I understood it, the posts seemed to take a personal jab. If I wanted to be severe, I would have deleted all of the posts...Overall, I simply was making an attempt to update the information by adding to it. I have worked on several other bios (Trenary's, Lenko's, Belbin's). Not every sentence on wikipedia in a bio is supported by a citation. Several of the sources on the page have now been wrongly deleted, as Ms. Asariah used to go under a different name. As I stated earlier, perhaps Ms. Asariah is under the wrong category. When creating this article, I attempted to round out what I knew and also what I gathered from the WWW. I placed the "Stub" mention at the end, with the hopes of others assisting in expanding the article. I apologize if I have upset anyone with my lack of "wiki" knowledge or made any errors, and hope that we can continue to work on this together and other articles in the future. -Jed — Preceding unsigned comment added by JPelligrino (talk • contribs) 16:34, 21 January 2011 (UTC)  — JPelligrino (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Reply - You have twice stated she went under a different name, but have not provided it. And you added false information to the article asserting she placed 5th in the Junior Grand Prix.  Assuming good faith only goes so far.  Please provide this mysterious other name that she went by along with some proof of the change in names, along with an explanation for the introduction factual error into the biography. -- Whpq (talk) 17:08, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Reply JP, you claim you "have worked on several other bios (Trenary's, Lenko's, Belbin's)". I don't see those articles listed in your contributions. contribs  You say not every sentence in a bio has a citation.  True, but every purported fact in a WP:BLP must have reliable sourcing under WP:RS.  You say "perhaps Ms. Asariah is under the wrong category" (twice now), but you don't suggest one.  I can tell you right now: she doesn't make the cut as a recording artist, nowhere near.  Music teacher?  I don't think so.  There are standards for skating coaches, but again, she's nowhere near.  And as far as I know, there's no category like "Past Presidents of Political Science Clubs at Universities." Yakushima (talk) 09:53, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Jed Pelligrino ( — JPelligrino (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. ) solicits work on the article, I've just done some: I went through every statement made and determined whether it needed to be cited under WP:BLP, leaving fact-tags where there was no citation, or where the source cited didn't support the statement made.  In several cases, the source cited didn't even mention Khrystenn Asariah.  In one case, someone with the middle name "Khrystenn" was given as outgoing president of a campus political science club.  In a couple of other cases, the sources cited mentioned Khrystenn in a way that supported some kind of fact, and in those cases I added or changed sentences.  Disturbingly, however, the claim that she competed in state and regional championships  is supported only by a citation  to a USFS page about coach continuing education compliance, mentioning nothing about her own record as a skater; and where the claim is made that's she's going for gold medals to rise to the top 2% of U.S. skaters, the source cited is recent tests showing that she recently performed Novice Moves in the Field (for which, see USFSA videos here  -- not absolute beginner moves, exactly, but hardly kissing top 2% of competition skating, I think.)  I have not been able to verify anything in the Competitive Highlights table. Yakushima (talk) 10:04, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment in a recent edit by Jed Pelligrino, after the AfD had been opened and WP:ATHLETE mentioned, we suddenly find Khrystenn on the world stage, with a 5th place finish in the ISU Junior Grand Prix. The table had hitherto listed only state and regional competitions.  As the originator of this article, Jed seemed to know a lot about Khrystenn that can't be derived from readily available sources on the web.  Jed also claims personal acquaintance with Khrystenn.  And yet, somehow this placement didn't come to mind when he created the article. Khrystenn herself, on her own website, on the page devoted to her competitive history, does not list the Junior Grand Prix, a significant one with cash awards for a 5th place finalist.  It's academic here, I suppose, since, for WP:ATHLETE notability, a skater has to have entered the Grand Prix, not the Junior Grand Prix; so Khrysten still falls short by Wikipedia standards for skaters even with this new pinnacle apparently revealed.  Still, I wonder if Jed could provide us with the document and the page number, given that this 5th place finish is not listed on the web anywhere, not even on Khrystenn's own website, where she's hardly shy about listing her accomplishments.  I can ask around among the skaters I know (some of them coaches); maybe one of them will be able to verify against their own copy. Yakushima (talk) 15:31, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment - If that was the overall Junior Grand Prix, then the assertion that Asriah finished 5th is absolute baloney. As can be seen from the ISU Results for Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating 2001 / 2002 for Junior Ladies, 5th place was taken by Tatiana Basova. -- Whpq (talk) 16:01, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Further note: - The 2001 season for the Juunior Grand Prix consistef of the Sofia Cup, Czech Skate, JGP Gdansk, JGP The Haghue, Salchow Trophy, Trofeo Rita Trapanese, SBC Cup, and ISU Junior Grand Prix Final. Khrystenn Asariah is not even a competitor in these competitions much less a 5th place finisher. -- Whpq (talk) 16:14, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * And yet another note: - There is an assertion by JPelligrino early in this AFD that "She formerly was a singles skater (skated under a different name)" without providing us with that name. But in any case, none of the 5th place finishers at 2001-2 ISU JGP for Ladies Singles was an American. I smell the additon of false information to the article in attemtp to manufacture notability. -- Whpq (talk) 16:20, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment*** I realize I made an error when trying to add more competitive history. I made some edits and added a source or two. I also deleted some sentences that may be misleading or show bias. Has anyone checked on different categories or merging? I am fruitless and about to give up here, last time for an oldie like me to try and look smart! -Jed — Preceding unsigned comment added by JPelligrino (talk • contribs) 19:36, 21 January 2011 (UTC)  — JPelligrino (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Reply - oh, it's hardly your last chance, JP. (Unless you get banned for tampering with an AfD discussion.)  You could, for example, start the article Richard Dwyer -- a skater who still doesn't have Wikipedia bio despite easily vaulting over the barriers of not just WP:ATHLETE but WP:GNG as well.  Certainly, if we have any single priority here, it should be something like "most notable first", should it not?  At least, it would be if you're actually here to make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia of figure skating.  But when you claim you've edited other skater bios like Trenary's, while your available editing history shows you're basically just a WP:SPA for Khrystenn Asariah, you're making it very difficult indeed for any of the rest of us to maintain an Assumption of Good Faith WP:AGF. Yakushima (talk) 11:50, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment -“oh, it’s hardly your last chance JP unless you get banned” –What is that supposed to imply? All I said was that I was “fruitless and about to give up”. I have stated several times that I am new to all of this editing and all I did was ask for help and ask a question that a more experienced edito may have the answer to.. .but I guess it is “hardly my last chance.” Well thank you, that is encouraging. Listen, I’m 74, retired, and have no vested interest and I am really frowning upon your last few comments. I believe that you have been particularly cruel to me, shown through your sarcastic tone and approach. I have acknowledged the fact that you are more experienced than I, and that I do not have all the know-how. However, I have had this account for years, and even if I did in fact have a single purpose, I am sure I would have done it quite some while ago. I did make other edits, and I cannot even begin to tell you why it did not show up (perhaps I forgot to sign in?) I have been very kind, and understanding, and other than mistakenly deleting two comments that I thought to have gone against policy (which I apologized for) and I have made the best attempts to honestly edit this the best way possible, all the while trying to answer questions/comments. As previously stated, I am not an expert, I am just learning. I feel you have been harsh, at best, and I have done the best I am able to make this work. I do not need to be attacked, criticized or made assumptions against. Lastly, I believe some of the comments you have made have delegitimized Ms. Asariah’s work and efforts (if others happen to read some of the things you have said directly about Ms. Asariah-and not the Wiki biography-would they leave on a positive note?). I truly believe that this back-and-forth has gone a little too far. I was here to discuss the biography, not nitpick Ms. Asariah’s lesser accomplishments. With that said and done, I want to make one last attempt to work to improve this biography. A couple of things that I could used some assistance with as a novice editor: I have compared several other biographies on here, and a citation is not there for each particular sentence, or mention of something, why is this? In addition, it seems some good sources have been swiped from the biography that have held to the standards. On another note, I have tried using the “Wiki help” sections, and I did not suggest another category, or redirection etc, since I have not located this medium myself? I appreciate any help. This is all I am going to say from here on out with this, my hands are up in the air, and as I previously stated, I am voting to Keep this article, pending further development, review, citation, etc. If this is miscategorized, lets fix it together. Thanks.–Jed See, I am already learning (I know how to sign my name now) JPelligrino (talk) 16:37, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Reply is available on JPelligrino's talk page. Yakushima (talk) 04:14, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I am writing to see about saving this article from deletion. Aside from my own errors as a novice Wiki editor (deleting 2 comments without commenting that this happened, accidentally "voting" twice), I believe this article to be sufficient to standards. As far as the competitive history goes, I beleive we need more time to look into this. Some of the sources that were deleted were done wrongly, perhaps with the name change confusions, however, Ms. Asariah is found on legitimate and credentialed sites all over the WWW and has gained quite the following as it seems, on social networking sites and the like.(Even Ms. Asariah's own web address states that the competitive history is a "partial listing"). I find that this article should be kept, however, I do agree that this needs improvments, more verifiability, etc. Should this be redirected? Should it be re-categorized? Should this have a different lable (stub, orphan, etc.)? Should this be placed in another category until more information is discovered? It is quite obvious that Ms.Asariah has the credibility have the biography, just lacking necessary sources and possible confusions with the last name change. -Jed JPelligrino (talk) 17:36, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Reply - The inclusion in Wikipedia is guided by what is called "notability". This is a specific concept covering guidelines for keeping articles on wikipedia that is distinct from any dictionary definition of the word.  For inclusion in general, see Notability.  The essence of that is that the subject of the article has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.  For athletes, there is some more specific guidance at Notability (sports).  There isn't a specific guideline for figure skaters but the essence of the general guideline for sports figures is that they must have competed at the highest level of their sport.  With respect to Khrystenn Asariah, she has not received significant coverage in reliable sources to meet the general inclusion guidelines.  With respect the guidelines for athletes, she has not competed at the highest level of her sport which would require her to have been in international competitions such as Grand Prix events.  That is the reason this article has been nominated for deletion, and why other editors are recommending its deletion.  There has been no evidence put forward that she meets the above stated guidelines.  And unless such evidence is put forward, the article is likely to be deleted. -- Whpq (talk) 18:12, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.