Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Killing of Brianna Ghey


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep per WP:SNOW. Good faith nomination, but there is now significant coverage in media and now easily passes WP:GNG. That wasn't the case at nom - A l is o n  talk 21:56, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Killing of Brianna Ghey

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Article does not pass WP:GNG. It simply describes the murder of a trans girl but doesn't state why this particular murder is notable. People are killed each and every day. Why should this murder get an article while others do not? Seems very WP:ROUTINE to me. Noah Talk 02:36, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Not able to withdraw since there are people wanting deletion/draftify, but I have moved to keep below since the article satisfies GNG at this point. Noah Talk 21:41, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose Note, I'm the article creator. With regards to GNG, I think that a killing being covered by all major UK news outlets meets the definition of significant coverage. My only concern at the moment is WP:NSUSTAINED as we currently only have a days worth of media articles, however this is an issue that plagues all of our killing articles so I don't think this is unique in that regard and is mentioned in a relevant SNG. Would draftifcation be a suitable alternative to deletion, as that would allow for time after the AfD is closed for sustained coverage to be demonstrated. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:47, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't care if it is draftified for now. Just curious as to what sparked so many to pick up this story. Was the victim notable in some way or is it just that knife killings are rare in the UK? It just seemed more sensational in nature than anything to me. Noah Talk 02:52, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Bit of both. Any killing of a teen (stats record 13-19) in England and Wales is pretty rare, with only 69 total recorded last year. What's rarer are when the suspects are themselves teens, and if the pair in custody are later convicted it would make them among the youngest convicted killers in the UK. The reported multiple stab wounds would also make this one of the more violent killings in the UK, though we'll have to wait for the postmortem to be released to know for sure just how violent the crime was.
 * Early reporting also raised the issue of this being a potential hate crime, due to the victim being trans and social media reports of the victim having been bullied for years because of that. However according to more recently released statements the local police have not found evidence to suggest it's hate related. But as with all killings, that too might change over the coming days, which makes assessing long term notability different.
 * In writing the article I wanted to keep it as close to the currently known facts as possible, hence why some of this was not included in the content. It made it shorter, and I was hoping to expand it based on the morning/afternoon news tomorrow. Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:09, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm compiling a list on the talk page at the moment, before I try to figure out how to work some of it into the prose of the article. In addition to the expected statements from family and school principal, there have also been statements from two UK based LGBT rights charities (Stonewall and Mermaids), two Labour Party MPs who are not the MP for where Ghey lived, and several notable (as in they have articles on enwiki) bands and musicians.
 * While I was expecting some more articles this afternoon from the major UK press outlets, I was not expecting an article in NME, which is where the band/musician reactions are coming from. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:47, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete Run of the mill crime receiving some tabloid coverage. No indication of long term significance. Per WP:EVENTCRIT... "Routine kinds of news events (including most crimes, accidents, deaths, celebrity or political news, "shock" news, stories lacking lasting value such as "water cooler stories," and viral phenomena) – whether or not tragic or widely reported at the time – are usually not notable unless something further gives them additional enduring significance." -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:58, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that the statement of notable politicians, such as Jeremy Corbyn, makes this a significant event. Leetinkoy (talk) 15:06, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep – Seeing broad coverage, and seems prone to ongoing coverage as well. Per Sideswipe above, there seems to be that "additional significance" requested by WP:EVENTCRIT. DecafPotato (talk) 03:27, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * What significance? It's a murder. It's getting some sensational news coverage. That's it as far as I can tell. If something actually does come up that rings the WP:N bell, I will happily reconsider. But I'm not seeing anything at the moment. And speculation about what might or might not come up, is just that. See also WP:CRYSTAL. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:32, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There's also WP:RAPID – it seems odd to delete an article for a lack of sustained coverage when there has been zero opportunity for such coverage, as the event happened just yesterday. I'm not necessarily opposed to draftification or another similar WP:ATD, however. DecafPotato (talk) 03:38, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * We don't create articles about a subject because it might become notable. This subject does not currently pass our guidelines for establishing notability and the article's creation was precipitous. I am quite willing to wait and see where things are at the end of the customary week for discussion. But as of right now, I stand by my delete. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:35, 13 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete see Ad Orientem's reasoning, and we can revisit if things progress. Ludicrous (talk) 03:34, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * If nothing else, draftify. No real concern of letting this breathe a bit more, though for now this just looks like a tragic event. Yes the killing has been highly-covered, but that alone does not establish significance. I'd lean towards draftifying rather than outright deletion to preserve the editing so far (and even if this killing is never judged to be worthy of its own page, it's material could end up eventually being used in larger articles, such as ones about violence against transgender individuals or such in the UK in specific). As of now, it's not clear the significance of the event to the point where this article should be in the mainspace. DarkSide830 (talk) 04:57, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete unless further news/evidence reveals anything of greater notability, i.e. it was an anti-trans hate crime. Otherwise, agree with Ad Orientem. The Kip (talk) 06:55, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Cheshire police are now investigating this as a potential hate crime. There's other sources on this below as well. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:50, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime, Events,  and England.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 08:25, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Draftify at most per WP:NOTNEWS at the moment. I found out the latest news on this breaking story from this page, and the article. I think it will pass GNG eventually, but am dubious at the moment. The article is a few days premature. -Roxy the dog 08:29, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Draft - WP:TOOSOON AND WP:NOTNEWS. It is a sad thing when not every murder is notable, what a horrific event. JMWt (talk) 08:43, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Draftify - I agree with Ad Orientem's assessment that this is not notable at present. However, notability can develop later, so I think this should be draftified and revisited in the future. The ⬡ Bestagon T / C 12:24, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Draftify until the notability of the event is upheld by sustained coverage in multiple reliable sources. Due to the age of the victim and the perpetrators, as well as Ghey's gender identity, it is not unlikely that there will be a significant public reaction and sustained coverage, and that the killing will eventually meet the notability bar. Mooonswimmer 14:01, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete and merge anything worth salvaging into Violence against transgender people in the United States or any other related article and/or list. Fails WP:VICTIM. This crime, horrendous as it is, merits inclusion in enwiki only under the wider context of the elevated risk of serious violence that LGBTQ+ people face.  Mel ma nn   14:55, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support this solution. Also, seemed to have occured in the United Kingdom, so probably include it under Violence against transgender people
 * Rabawar (talk) 16:43, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: Surely you actually mean merge with Violence against transgender people in the United Kingdom (although we don't have that article at present). This is Paul (talk) 16:45, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * My bad, I was reading another article about violence against LGBTQ+ people just before commenting here, which is probably why I mixed up the UK and US cases. Mel ma nn   20:41, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. The subject is getting enough widespread media coverage to make it notable, and plenty of other similarly prolific murders have their own pages. Snokalok (talk) 15:54, 13 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep for now and see how this develops. Whether or not it is notable will depend on the circumstances, and that's something we'll only learn in time. This is Paul (talk) 16:48, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That's not how things work. We don't create articles about non-notable subjects and wait around to see if things change. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:02, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed not, but then perhaps the person who created this article thought it was a notable topic. The case will inevitably receive a lot of media coverage due to the victim's age and maybe because of her transgender status. At present that probably makes this a borderline case of WP:GNG, which is why I suggested waiting for now. Personally I would've waited a bit longer before creating it, but it is what it is. This is Paul (talk) 17:23, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt the good faith of the article creator. But there is no way this passes notability at present, unless you are prepared to completely ignore EVENTCRIT. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:39, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I think I probably am going to do that at this stage, since the case for keeping the article is growing. Thankfully this kind of crime is rare in the UK, which in itself would make it notable. Add to that the criticism of the way the incident was reported, and the imposing of a no-fly zone over the crime scene due to the macabre interest of the media and others, and the case is already stronger. Also this case is already being used, and will no doubt continue to be used, to highlight violence against LGBTQ, and more specifically, trans people in the UK. We're far beyond the usual run-of-the-mill coverage that a stabbing death would generate. This is Paul (talk) 18:19, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete As of now, seems like standard news reporting on a murder is all the attention this is receiving. It's a horrifying, tragic event, but WP:NSUSTAINED seems unlikely to be met at this time.  WP:TOOSOON.  -- Jayron 32 18:36, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Change vote to Keep. Situation has changed in the past 24 hours in terms of source material.  Agree that now this has grown to have enough information to pass standards. -- Jayron 32 13:09, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep The event has received notable media coverage, with multiple articles in The Guardian, and the BBC  , and coverage has gone international with Teen Vogue  and Cosmopolitan . CJ-Moki (talk) 18:51, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Broad coverage doesn't necessarily merit an article. There's been many a sensationalized murder over the years.
 * Outside of a hate crime or some other unusual details emerging, this doesn't meet notability standards at the moment. The Kip (talk) 20:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Retain: For the UK this is very notable - such crimes are rare (see above) and coverage has been widespread amongst all media sources. Yes, WP isn't news, but this case will certainly have ramifications beyond the immediate reporting. This isn't appropriate to move to a draft but it might be sensible to review the article in a month or so. --AlisonW (talk) 20:27, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Notability criteria are not different per country. Could you please consider this article under the existing notability criteria?  Mel ma nn   20:44, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Other criteria aside, the rarity of this within the UK would make it so that ROUTINE should have a different threshold than if this was a killing in the US or some other country. As I said above in my !vote, my only concern is NSUSTAINED.
 * Also as much as I loathe to make an WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS type argument I would point out that we generally do allow for some leeway with that for recently occurred killings, in particular we seem to frequently create but rarely delete articles on mass shootings in the US, despite those absolutely and sadly being routine for that country. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:14, 13 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Article now passes GNG with the addition of information. Noah Talk 13:34, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep This situation has had numerous politicians, including a former leader of the opposition, make statements on it. The fact that it has been picked up by both sides of the "trans debate", as much as I dislike that term, shows that it's considered notable for a variety of reasons by all parties involved. Leetinkoy (talk) 15:11, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep: The controversies in media bias that followed this tragic event should give this event "additional enduring significance" referred in WP:EVENTCRIT --LT1211 (talk) 01:25, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep per others Estar8806 (talk) 02:08, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep I have seen hundreds of "un-notable" articles that are not pending a deletion. It also seems like a very popular story in the UK Hungry403 (talk) 06:01, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. The ⬡ Bestagon T / C 13:02, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * These tragic events, any events for that matter, would not have received the attention, and scrutiny offered in 2023, before the advent of digital connectivity before 1995. Social media is a mirror, and thus a reflection of "us" currently. Society has the technical ability to record History, literally, "in the making." Secondly, true, there are many events which "fall under the radar" of the scope of society's digitalized vision. Reason:the political ideologies manifest in our current society. Bentsince1963 (talk) 20:24, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Note to editors making comments: This murder took place in the UK, not the USA. As such it is a rarity, not an everyday occurrence. --AlisonW (talk) 20:31, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Not sure why that matters, nowhere in Wikipedia's policies or guidelines does it say that the location of an event affects its suitability as an article topic. I've read WP:N front and back, an nowhere does it say that stories from the U.S. don't get articles, but stories from the U.K. do.  -- Jayron 32 13:06, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hate crime murders are rarer in the UK, so probably deserve more attention. Leetinkoy (talk) 15:07, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, can you point to the part of Wikipedia's guidelines or policies that say that? I'm struggling to find where it says that we give extra emphasis to hate crimes because they occur in the UK?  Again, just trying to find it written down somewhere.  I always want to be sure I keep within policy, so if that is a rule, I would just want to see it written down so I know that I'm supposed to base my vote on such information.  -- Jayron 32 15:37, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think the guidelines do say that anywhere. I understand the point being made - that it's the exceptional features of this case in its context that give it its notability - but we don't (and IMHO shouldn't) have a rule that specifically encourages us to balance/bias things because of their location alone. GenevieveDEon (talk) 10:37, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep. I am appalled that this article is being considered for deletion. The murder of Brianna Ghey is a highly notable and impactful event. It is not a "routine murder" when a 16-year-old trans girl is stabbed to death, it is not "sensationalism"! It is a tragic symptom of a generalised escalation in violence against trans people in the UK . Why not follow WP:RAPID instead of rushing to delete? The article has already 29 sources, and in a few days there will be even more news coverage to draw upon (vigils for Brianna are being organised in several cities). Moreover, consider who is harmed by the article existing (no one) and who is going to be harmed by it being deleted — the entire LGBTQ+ community who is rightfully shouting #SayHerName. Mushroom (Talk) 22:38, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I would kindly like to invite you to please consider making a policy-based argument. Please remember that this is not the right place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS.  Mel ma nn   21:55, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * And I would encourage you not to use the RIGHTGREATWRONGS article to bludgeon discussion of sensitive and contentious topics. I see this done a lot at ITNC, as well - because a topic is emotive, and people report that emotional response (as reflected in RS) as part of their argument for its notability, others come in, in a very detached sort of way, to say 'oh, but Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs'. Arguably it isn't, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't report on those wrongs. GenevieveDEon (talk) 10:41, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Reminding editors to stick to policy-based consensus building is not bludgeoning the discussion. For every emotive argument attempting to WP:RGW there is an equally emotive argument of opposite polarity. Would you be so charitable to somebody making an emotive argument on behalf of J. K. Rowling? I'd venture you would not.
 * Our job here is to stick to policy in all situations, and not just when it suits us.  Mel ma nn   22:02, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep – Much work has been done to improve the article since this AFD was lodged and I feel satisfied that it meets notability criteria. --Pokelova (talk) 23:06, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep for now - IMO coverage has been wide enough that we can, for the moment, presume notability. This may change in the medium- or long-term, but at this point in time I think there's enough evidence that it's notable. Gazamp (talk) 00:02, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep – As per above. It is a notable killing which has featured in the mainstream media. KeyKing666 (talk) 00:42, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. Plenty of high-quality sources. Innisfree987 (talk) 00:56, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:DEPTH. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 01:20, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. LandonExists (talk) 01:57, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - It follows all the WP:Notability guidelines, there are enough secondary reliable sources talking about her death, so I think it should stay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Max BuddyRoo (talk • contribs) 03:48, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep: Per others, clearly passes GNG. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)Talk to Me! 06:00, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep per AlisonW, Sideswipe9th and Mushroom in particular. I too note that an article the murder of a trans child in the UK gets listed for deletion very promptly, whereas school shootings are ten a penny in the US and don't get challenged so heavily. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please &#123;&#123;ping&#125;&#125; me in replies) 07:43, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete. As sad this event is, I don't think it should have it's own page on the encyclopedia. Awambawamb (talk) 14:11, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep or draftify. There is quite a bit of coverage and this is still pretty new. I lean towards keeping this, but if not that then I absolutely think this should be draftified, as I expect that there would be more coverage in the future. The authorities also seem to be backtracking a little on their statement about it not being a possible hate crime. They said no evidence, but haven't completely ruled it out. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79)  (｡◕‿◕｡)  14:39, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep: I think that this has the capacity to become a cause célèbre . Depending on how the police handle this case, it could easily turn into a Stephen Lawrence or Sarah Everard, especially now that the police think that it could be a hate crime. Also, the discussion surrounding this case is unlike anything I have seen in a long time, specifically in terms of the national media coverage that it is getting. I say we keep it at least for the time being and see what happens.TicTacTax(he/him)Talk to Me! 14:50, 14 February 2023


 * The Murder of Sophie Lancaster is also relevant here - not just because of the circumstances of the case, but also because that article survived an AfD similar to this one, in large part due to the media coverage of the case and the wider issues surrounding it. GenevieveDEon (talk) 10:43, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep: Her murder is picking up increased notability in the media, as it's tied into the ongoing problems (increased hate crime and fear) that transgender people are facing within the UK; this is more than just a tragic stabbing, it has links to important contemporary issues, which media coverage is beginning to reflect.—Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) (&#123;&#123;ping&#125;&#125; me!) 15:19, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Strong delete – Police have made it clear that there is no reason to suggest her murder was a hate crime. See here. As such, her murder is not out of the ordinary compared to 1000s of others that occur each year. If this changes when more information becomes available then I'd happily reconsider this incident having its own page, but for now it's just a regular murder and I don't think it merits a stand alone article. Public reaction seems to be largely driven by emotive purposes based on the fact that she was young and a minority (particularly a young woman, or indeed a young trans woman), but that does not make her death notable either. It's important that Wikipedia takes an outlook from the perspective of a neutral encyclopaedia, rather than become entangled in hyped up media frenzy, moral panics or tribalism. --Jkaharper (talk) 15:28, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It is being investigated as a hate crime by the police, which is also cited by one of the keep comments above you in addition to the article itself. I will of course WP:AGF and presume that you are simply unaware of the development, but I don't think the earlier source can stand on its own as an argument for the article's deletion anymore. Supchppt (talk) 15:59, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * "1000s of others that occur each year" is somewhat hyperbolic for recorded killings in the UK. As I said above, there were only [69 recorded killings of teenagers in England and Wales in the 2021-2022 year per the Office of National Statistics (latest year we have stats for). In total, there were only 696 killings of any age in England and Wales in the same time period. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:06, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes because the trans girl, in a country so obsessively transphobic it's frequently referred to as "TERF Island", being beaten up and harassed for years by her classmates for being trans, and then finally killed by two of them, in a country where teenage murders are quite rare, could not possibly be a hate crime. Not to mention the fact, of course, that the police have indicated they're now investigating it as a hate crime. Snokalok (talk) 22:04, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * As someone above already pointed out, this is still being investigated as a hate crime. Regardless, whatever ruling the police ultimately come to is irrelevant as to to whether or not the article should be kept. What we should look at is how substantial the coverage of the event in reliable sources is and it seems clear to me that the coverage is more than substantial enough to make the event notable. The Midnite Wolf (talk) 02:24, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, I think describing the understandable outcry, as reported in RS, at the murder of a teenage girl as 'hyped up media frenzy, moral panic or tribalism' is giving undue weight to a contrary position in which such events are seen as unimportant. Such a position would be highly biased, and unworthy of a responsible encyclopedia. GenevieveDEon (talk) 10:46, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Exceptionality is the kind of thing we judge based on the volume and type of reliable source coverage, not on the arbitrary particulars of the story. If a story is covered in-depth and with sustained coverage in reliable sources in a way that indicates it is exceptional, then it it.  We also don't discount such stories merely because we feel they are unexceptional... Wikipedia is based on what can be shown by evidence, not by what we wish the world were like.  -- Jayron 32 13:04, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Exactly - I think people get confused (both ways round) between their feelings about the evidence, and what the evidence says about people's feelings. The former is mostly irrelevant; the latter can be highly relevant. GenevieveDEon (talk) 13:43, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Cautious Keep - and if it is to be removed, please draftify. The police have reversed their earlier statement about ruling out treating this as a hate crime, and the story does seem to be attracting continued attention in the press. I appreciate the logic of some of the oppose !votes, but for better or worse this case is developing into a cause celebre of sorts. GenevieveDEon (talk) 15:47, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep: While the information is still evolving, the parallels to the Matthew Shepard case are unfortunately pretty strong. There's a pretty strong likelihood of ongoing secondary source coverage as the investigation proceeds and the case goes to trial, plus the relevancy of it in the context of effects of the political discourse about transgender people in the UK. Just in case there are concerns about whether I was canvassed: I actually found my way here from posting an AfD related to an English businesswoman, clicked the England cat, and found this AfD the line directly below. Lizthegrey (talk) 16:00, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep per OwenBlacker and the users cited in his comment. Supchppt (talk) 16:10, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete - tragic but not notable enough. Bermicourt (talk) 17:08, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete unless something significant happens as a result, e.g. a change in the law. If that happens, we can always restore it. Deb (talk) 17:15, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete not particularly noteworthy unless a change in the law occurs. TheNoblestShroud (talk) 17:15, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of murders on wikipedia that led to no such changes, and yet have their own articles. Why is this one any different? Snokalok (talk) 21:48, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * To both the above posters asking for it only to be considered if there is a change in the law - that's an incredibly high bar, a demand for a truly exceptional level of significance. The Murder of James Bulger, a very notable case in which the accused (and in that case convicted) perpetrators were minors, did not lead to a change in the law, but it would clearly be absurd for us not to cover it. GenevieveDEon (talk) 10:50, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep as it is being investigated as a possible hate crime now.Autarch (talk) 18:18, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep or draftify. Media coverage is now pretty significant for this tragic incident (as mentioned above it is already being investigated as a possible hate crime). If this is still considered to be insufficient or insignificant to be kept as an article, I think it should be moved to the draft space; however, I do think it is already good to be kept as it is (especially because it now has 30+ references). Vida0007 (talk) 19:09, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Now significant media coverage and discussion. wd-Ryan (Talk) 20:38, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Significant media coverage. Asrieltheoracle (talk) 21:15, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Significant media coverage. Seems to be as notable as Killing of Gracie Spinks and Death of Keith Lyon after a 15 minute review of Deaths by stabbing in England. Ward20 (talk) 00:06, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep You should not decide what future generations can read on wikipedia? 93.242.105.246 (talk) 00:27, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * We kind of do - that's exactly the point of AfD. And if this article were to be deleted now, and subsequently we decided that it was something that should be read about on Wikipedia, then it could be recreated. GenevieveDEon (talk) 10:51, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep This event has received significantly more coverage than most murders of teenagers. After only four days, it's been picked up by non-British news sites including Vogue, NBC, Vice News, and The Journal and has been commented on by high-ranking politcians. The Midnite Wolf (talk) 04:09, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Adding on to this The New York Times, CNN, The Washington Post, Insider The Midnite Wolf (talk) 18:02, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - I'm a bit baffled by this nomination. Sure, people are killed every day - but that's easily overridden by the international GNG coverage. Nfitz (talk) 04:38, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep — Plenty of international media coverage of a significant event. Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 05:55, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep -- Given this happened in the UK where it's a rarity, it's much more notable than the myriad of murders in the US and some other countries. --Shawn K. Quinn (talk) 06:50, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - getting global coverage and being investigated as a hate crime. Anarchyte  ( talk ) 07:26, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. Very heavy coverage in the British and international media. Clearly more than just a routine murder. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:07, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep: The murder has received significant coverage in both British and international high-quality, reliable publications. And given the connection to transphobia and trans rights in the United Kingdom, it's safe to say that it will continue receiving coverage. --PanagiotisZois (talk) 14:06, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Moving to Keep based on the continued and likely long-term coverage. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:50, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - Given the conflicting messages of WP:DELAY and WP:RAPID, the best we can do once an article on a new subject is created and nominated for deletion is to evaluate the likelihood that it will continue to receive coverage moving forward. Based on the incredible amount of international attention this has received, it seems extremely likely to me this event will see lasting significance. &mdash; Rhododendrites  <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk \\ 15:20, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. I was expecting this story to go very quiet very fast but (fortunately) I was very wrong. The lid is off and it seems to be staying off. There is sustained international coverage and notability is absolutely established. The story has wider ramifications with the behaviour of the police and, particularly, parts of the British press being examined. MPs are getting involved. I appreciate that a lot of people don't like a light being shone on what goes on in the UK but that's just tough. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:44, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep based on the SIGCOV- appears to be sustained. No WP:RUSHDELETE. Lightburst (talk) 18:56, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment, Close This AfD At this point the article has 41 citations. An admin should close this AfD now due to WP:SNOW and WP:IAR. Leaving the deletion notice on the article is an embarrassment, and an invitation for the media to criticize Wikipedia about transphobia. Ward20 (talk) 19:25, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The article didn't satisfy GNG at the time of nomination but it does now. What the media thinks is of little importance. We don't let the media dictate everything here. The notice will be removed in due course. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 19:32, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not so much the reaction of the media as the reaction of our readers that we should consider. Without blaming you for anything, I think that it is fair to say that this has become an embarrassment and that some readers might see the banner and find it distressing. Given that this is only going one way, I do think it would be best to end it now. DanielRigal (talk) 19:40, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree, having a “nominated for deletion” page over a very prolific trans murder, does tend to make people ask certain questions.
 * I’m not accusing the nominator of anything, I’m sure their intent was and is pure, I’m merely commenting on the optics in play. Snokalok (talk) 19:46, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Seconded. Most people viewing the article will be unfamiliar with how deletion discussions work on Wikipedia and may not assume good faith. Since the case has received exceptional media coverage, WP:IAR seems appropriate here. The Midnite Wolf (talk) 20:07, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep While it was not immediately clear whether this was a hate crime investigation, it is now. The level of coverage the case is receiving raises it above the routine. -- Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:34, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Moderately weak keep I’m not feeling too weakly about this nomination, but I’m not 100% on board to keep, due to the fact that this might not pass WP:ENN (specifically the 109 papers portion), but this being a rare event for the UK dragged me onto the keep side. 71.125.62.146 (talk) 21:58, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.