Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kilner jar


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Deryck C. 11:21, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Kilner jar

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Disputed Prod. Vestigially-sourced article on a topic whose sole claim to notability appears to be a tenuous WP:INHERITED connection to Jeremy Clarkson. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 04:09, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep Actually, Kilner jars were a very familiar item in British households for over a century and became a generic name for preserving jars in much the same way as 'Hoover' became a generic for vacuum cleaner. They will be less familiar today and a useful article for any Wikipedia users too young to remember them. --AJHingston (talk) 08:12, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Preserving Jars currently redirects to Mason jar (which is the type of preserving jars I'm familiar with -- though under a different brand name). If substantive reliable third-party information could be found on Kilner jars, I'd suggest merging them under the former name -- but until sources can be found, there's really nothing to merge. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 08:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't deny the difficulty of sourcing this well. There are thousands of references to Kilner jars on line but on the history they either lift from Wikipedia, are not themselves reliable sources, or are not written in an encyclopedic way. References to the jar just use it as a generic term and some refer to something not sold under that name. But the facts and notability aren't in dispute. The best sources are likely to be written, eg in books about home bottling or in material about glass collecting, and the jars bearing the Kilner name exist (the article has a photograph) and trade catalogues will have survived. The best book sources I have found is of this sort Blueberries, cranberries, and other vacciniums By Jennifer Trehane and The collectors' encyclopedia of antiques or here on a precursor but there will be better. I'm against deletion where the facts aren't in dispute and good sources will exist. I'm not, though, against having the main article as Preserving Jars with types and history discussed there, especially as it will be easier to source (the Mason jar article is also weak on sources). But it will prompt a war over who invented them, as Kilner founded his firm before Mason patented his version in the US (a 19th century US patent is not a reliable source for attributing invention in the absence of other evidence and it is usually safer just to note that somethng was 'first patented in ___ by ___ in ____'). --AJHingston (talk) 11:04, 20 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep This is a really obvious keep I'd say - really well known British product (and the points made above about Mason jars vs Kilner jars are a sound argument). I'm surprised there's not much reliable online information about the history of the company or the jar. There have to be good sources out there - I'll see what I can find in printed sources later. Blue Square Thing (talk) 17:01, 20 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep Obviously notable. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:35, 20 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment: lacking any explicit basis in WP:N for the opinion, I would suggest that "obvious keep" and "obviously notable" should be interpreted as mere knee-jerk reactions. Such things are only genuinely 'obvious' when plentiful reliable third party "sources [that] address the subject directly in detail" make this obvious. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 05:47, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * ! I cannot imagine a better example of notability than a brand name becoming the generic name for a common domestic item. --AJHingston (talk) 12:13, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment A quick search of the guardian website produced over 20 articles which used the term Kilner Jar, generally in recipe directions. Sorry, but this is a really obviously notable product - it's, as AJHingston suggests, Hoover like. There are some sources about the history that I might have time to deal with later. Blue Square Thing (talk) 14:15, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Rebuttal: I would point out that WP:Notability explicitly requires "sources [that] address the subject directly in detail" and that "articles which used the term Kilner Jar" (however many they may be) do not meet this threshold. I would point out that it is easily conceivable that "a brand name becom[es] the generic name for a common domestic item" without generating such depth. I would further point out that we currently lack WP:RS capable of sustaining anything beyond a WP:DICTDEF for the topic. This is the flaw in relying upon WP:Inherent notability, rather than on third-party-sourcing-based notability -- it can all too easily result in keeping non-viable articles. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 04:15, 22 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep. I think Kilner jars are very well-known. Sourcing does seem a bit thin/dificult. Is this source be helpful/reliable? http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/wiki/Kilner_Brothers  (Msrasnw (talk) 15:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC))
 * PS: these might also be useful
 * * A piece of art (?) http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/journals/conservation-journal/issue-57/book-in-a-jar/
 * * The current (?) company http://www.rayware.co.uk/Kilner.aspx
 * * Jones, R (2009) What's who?: a dictionary of things named after people and the people they are named after, Troubador Publishing Ltd (The entry on 291 on p130 is for the "Kilner jar".) Or is this one of the books that borrows stuff from us?
 * * The preservation of natural history specimens, (1968) Volume 2 Reginald Wagstaffe, John Havelock Fidler - discusses the successfull use of a new type of Kilner Jar at Liverpool Museum
 * * Home economics: Volume 24, 1978 reports on "The British Dual-purpose Kilner jars with metal lid and screw-band are popular, and a new Ravenhead Kilner jar has been launched recently with glass lid, separate rubber ring and polypropylene screw-band."
 * * Fish.& Food,Min.of Agriculture (1989) Home Preservation of Fruit and Vegetables, Stationery Office Books; 14th Revised edition edition - (is a HMSO publication first issued in 1929 and discusses Kilner jars and how to use them.)
 * Hopefully these may be of use to reference the article - but I am not sure which would be useful and where to put them. (Msrasnw (talk) 16:04, 23 May 2011 (UTC))
 * None of these sources would appear to "address the subject directly in detail". HrafnTalkStalk(P) 05:35, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Some more possibly useful refs
 * Shephard, Sue (2001)Pickled, potted, and canned: how the art and science of food preserving changed the world, Simon & Schuster
 * Wagstaffe, Reginald and John Havelock Fidler  (eds) (1968)  The Preservation Of Natural History Specimens. Volume Two - Zoology - Vertebrates. Also Botany & Geology. H.F.& G.Witherby. London
 * Also a UK trade site: http://www.kilnerjarsuk.co.uk/
 * Hope these might help (Msrasnw (talk) 09:42, 24 May 2011 (UTC))
 * I think Kilner's were awarded a prize medal at the 1862 International Exhibition exhibition for "Bottles and glass for useful and scientific applications". (Claimed on Kilner's advertising in the Lancet June 6 1868. (Msrasnw (talk) 09:56, 24 May 2011 (UTC))
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.