Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kilwa Empire


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Sandstein  17:22, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Kilwa Empire

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The article is pure phantasy. There is not one source quoted. Throw it out. Cf Iranica on East Africa: "large-scale Persian settlement in East Africa is unlikely... Archeological evidence from East Africa shows economic connections with the ports of southern Persia from the 3rd to the 15th centuries C.E.", and nothing more. Kipala (talk) 11:57, 5 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete as hoax or crass case of source distortion, or redirect to Kilwa Sultanate. Created by a known abuser (now banned), originally created without any decent sources at all, no reason to trust the sources added later either. Book search for "Kilwa" and "Bazrangid" turns up nothing that isn't mirroring Wikipedia. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:36, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The sources are fine. They ust say nothing about a Kilwa empire as decribed. That is why author does not quote or specify any reference. Kipala (talk) 13:25, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions.  CASSIOPEIA(talk) 13:47, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions.  CASSIOPEIA(talk) 13:47, 5 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment. Ummm.... this book by Adonis & Abbey Publishers Ltd seems to contain more or less the text in our article. The publisher and author would probably be assumed to be a WP:RS.... However the textual similarity to our Wikipedia page (including the version created in 2006, the book being published in 2014) seems to be beyond coincidental - despite the book not citing Wikipedia as far as I can tell. Regarding the nomination comment - the article is asserting this empire was mostly in the Persian gulf (despite being named for Kilmwa in East Africa). The book source does present a bit of a pickle. Icewhiz (talk) 14:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The book is, as you yourself found, quite clearly plagiarized from our article, and as such of course not a reliable source. That's a no-brainer, there's no problem to consider at all here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:41, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * One could make that argument (not sure I'd call it a no-brainer - it could "just" be copied text but the contents matching the author's knowledge), however - this 2002 Palgrave book pre-dates our 2006 article and covers a "Kilwa Empire". As does Akasheh, Anahid, and Mehrdad Izady. "The History and Conservation of Zanzibar Stone Town." The International Journal of Kurdish Studies 10.1/2 (1996): 161. - saying - " Kilwa Empire seems to have come into being when the first Sasanian emperor, Ardasher". Icewhiz (talk) 14:46, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, yeah, that seems to be the entity we have an article about at Kilwa Sultanate. That article is also far from acceptable quality, but at least better than this one here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:54, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I can see the case for TNT - but the two articles are not duplicates. The Sultanate article covers post 980. This article covers the period prior to that - 224 (or 3rd century) to 980 (when the Sultanate was formed). Some Persian presence - even a "Kilwa Empire" (would seem to be not a land empire - but a martime empire) - is supported by some sources (e.g. above). Icewhiz (talk) 15:08, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete. I'm not sure how we got to this point (whether it was intentional or accidental misinformation). But this just isn't accurate. Frankly, our Kilwa Sultanate article is a mess, with core claims based on a 19th century Portuguese chronology that's been firmly rejected by modern scholars. But the idea that there was a thousand years of Persian imperial presence at Kilwa before that is just, as the nominator said, fantasy. As this paper discusses, there was no empire at Kilwa before about the 13th century. There certainly was no empire at Kilwa in 224 CE. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 15:36, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 15:42, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Middle East-related deletion discussions. Icewhiz (talk) 15:42, 5 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete - then maybe redirect to the sultanate. There is a good deal of research on the inhabitants of Kilwa Island in antiquity (for instance: Wynne-Jones, Stephanie. "Creating urban communities at Kilwa Kisiwani, Tanzania, AD 800-1300." Antiquity 81, no. 312 (2007): 368-380.) None of it mentions an empire. There is also a good deal of research on the so called Kilwa Chronicle - from which we get the story of Kilwa's ownership by Almuli before the sultanate. I don't see any mention of something like that in that research, either. Smmurphy(Talk) 16:13, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete as not notable myth (due to the brief mentions in some text cited above). While there are later (circa 10th century) Shirazi people's Persian origin stories, this earlier one is not mentioned in the archaeological research or early textual sources such as the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea or Ibn Battuta. 24.151.50.175 (talk) 18:05, 5 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment. There is definitively nothing to redirect as there NEVER was a Kilwa empire. Sorry to say, as I really love Iran من ایران را بسیار دوست دارم  but this is just another joyful expression of Persian / Iranian historical optimism. You find Iranians who insist their forefathers invented everything from the scrambled egg via human rights to the first expedition in outer space 2000 years ago. And of course Kilwa ruins. This is a beautiful expression of a national poetic spirit but not exactly   encyclopedical content. Kipala (talk) 21:42, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete as per Kipala. Probably not a "hoax", but completely unfounded. Srnec (talk) 18:48, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete as per Kipala. Britishfinance (talk) 20:44, 11 February 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.