Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kinuyo Yamashita


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  ark  // 23:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Kinuyo Yamashita

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Delete. There are zero matches on Google News Archives by this name. It is completely possible that sources might be available in another language, which is fine if they can be found. I have been unsuccessful in my attempts to locate non-trivial coverage of this individual from reliable third party publications. JBsupreme ( talk ) 05:18, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Keep and expand. Yamashita is notable as the original composer responsible for the musical style of the Castlevania series. She has composed music for several very popular games and is one of the most well-known composers in the video game music scene, in fact the whole scene growth and popularity owes a lot to her work in the first Castlevania game. There are numerous interviews of her in english, some included as links in the article, and loads of videos of her in performances of her music, as a performer or an honored guest. Even NME.com has a page for her. "No indication of notability"? I'll take that as ignorance in good faith. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.103.110.76 (talk) 18:45, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete. No indication of notability other than the subject's own website. --DAJF (talk) 10:35, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep DAJF, various interviews and other sources have been provided. None of them makes just a "passing reference" as you claim, feel free to read them before commenting on notability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.64.161 (talk) 12:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC) — 77.49.64.161 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Keep. As per IP address; the composer is notable and has been interviewed several times. The article is easily sourceable. The Prince (talk) 11:05, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I would hate to delete an article that can be confirmed by Reliable Sources, and considering no one has offered up any that I can see, I would ask you to provide some in evidence that it should be kept. Joshua Scott (talk) 00:39, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Keep. I have received permission from Kinuyo Yamashita herself to keep this article up. There are sources in place, and every interview with her is credible. She is the composer for the Castlevania series (known as Akumajou Dracula in Japan). She has even confirmed to me that what is in the article is entirely true. You can't get more proof than that! DJ15Nario (talk) 21:51, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * You've "received permission"? How do you expect to influence this process with such a comment? Dandy Sephy (talk) 23:20, 5 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Kinuyo Yamashita has a Facebook account (I know she's for real too because two personal friends of mine met her in real life and she said she'd send them friend requests) and she informed me of this situation through a status update. She was confused as to why this article would be deleted, considering how all the information on the page is true, and she has been thankful in my attempts to keep this article from being deleted. I don't know if the "fiance" below me is for real, but I do know that OSV is a reliable source (one of the personal friends mentioned above is the one who interviewed Yamashita; in fact, it's AkumuHau below) and that I'm telling the truth. That's your proof.DJ17Nario (talk) 11:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC)


 * It's irrelevant if thats true or if the subject of the article has a personal interest in it (and if anything might harm the discussion). You've certainly brought to the table reasons why this discussion has issues of conflict of interest.


 * Interest has nothing to do with this. The fact of the matter is that Kinuyo Yamashita is an influential composer and she has credible sources to back her up on Wikipedia, and yet people want to bring her down in claiming that the sources aren't credible, that she isn't important, and that she shouldn't be remembered on Wikipedia. It's unreal, and she deserves better.DJ17Nario (talk) 13:15, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Keep. I am Kinuyo's fiance and I translated the bio from Japanese to English with her help. The information is all sourced from her personal page and to a variety of interviews in English that verify this information. OSV is an independent website that has interviewed her with the link at the bottom of the page. Her credibility can be found on numerous websites including Myspace, Youtube and LinkedIn. NJDolphin —Preceding undated comment added 18:06, 4 February 2010 (UTC). — NJDolphin (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Well thats a conflict of interest even if true (somehow I'm not convinced). Dandy Sephy (talk) 23:20, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Delete per WP:NRVE. Article has existed for four years and no verifiable third-party sources have ever been added. Recommend that someone copy it to their userspace and improve it before attempting to add it again. -armagebedar (talk) 00:41, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. MrKIA11 (talk) 18:38, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions.  —DAJF (talk) 23:26, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Keep Kinuyo Yamashita is one of the most famous video game composers of her day and you can find countless interviews to back that up. Tommy Tallarico's Video Games Live concert recently had her appear as a special guest at their Tokyo event to do a speech for the crowd, as can be seen on Youtube.--AkumuHau (talk) 03:47, 5 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for pointing out the YouTube videos of Video Games Live, Akumu. I forgot about mentioning those, but it's proof that she is an influential composer if she was brought up by Tommy Tallarico himself. The crowd treated her with a healthy applause and she also gave an inspirational speech too.DJ17Nario (talk) 11:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Delete I came here to say keep, but this interview is the only thing I can find that comes close to a secondary source on this. This is not a reliable source in my opinion, and so this article cannot be notable, given the lack of reliabile sources. Joshua Scott (talk) 04:09, 5 February 2010 (UTC)


 * OSV is definitely a reliable source. In fact, AkumuHau--the user above your post--is the one who interviewed Kinuyo Yamashita.DJ17Nario (talk) 11:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC)


 * That someone who interviewed the subject of the article is claiming the article should be kept based on his own interview isn't helping as much as you think.

Comment I have to say, there are some suspect replies here. Dandy Sephy (talk) 23:20, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Skomorokh   16:50, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.

Comment I can understand why this was relisted, because there were a lot of !votes for both Keep and Delete. However, per NOTVOTE, consensus should be used to determine the outcome, rather than numbers of votes. None of the 5 keep comments gave any links, or ways to find WP:RS. This seems to be a pretty straightforward delete, IMHO, especially considering that it is a BLP. Joshua Scott (talk) 19:39, 6 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Two credible sources have been added since the threatening of this article's deletion. Those who wanted the article deleted wanted more sources, and there they are. DJ17Nario (talk) 15:27, 6 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DJ15Nario (talk • contribs)


 * Could you please point those out here? If credible sources have been added, I'm happy to change my position.  Here's the breakdown of the current references:
 * subject's website - the subject's own words can't be used to establish notability.
 * mobygames.com - passing mention, doesn't establish notability. This site is similar to IMDB, in that it doesn't have strict oversight on editors, so it cannot be used as a reliable source anyway.
 * ready-up.net - this is a blog, so it cannot be used as a reliable source.
 * 1up.com - this is also a blog.
 * Please let me know if I am wrong on these, but I don't see anything establishing notability. Thanks, Joshua Scott (talk) 21:06, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * 1UP.com is actually on the WikiProject Video games list of reliable sources, I believe because of their editorial control and use of established vg journalists. Can't speak for the other sources, however.  Wyatt Riot (talk) 09:52, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, MobyGames is on the list for "production credits" only, which is how it's used. Wyatt Riot (talk) 09:56, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out. I'm still not sure if the notability standard is being met here, but I'm striking my comment about 1up.com. Joshua Scott (talk) 05:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment Josh, these websites aren't blogs, they are long standing and well recognised game journalism websites using a blog format. I agree that the subject's website can't be used as source for an article, except maybe a few personal info tidbits. One question though, how can a musical score be notable enough to have multiple entries and mentions in wikipedia, and yet the composer is deemed not notable? Yamashita is even listed under "notable composers" - which she should, since she started the whole thing, and sources to verify that have already been provided.
 * You can't just arbitrarily claim that a source doesn't establish notability nor say that it is a "passing mention"; that's how works are attributed to their creators, by name only. For example, if i tell you that "Avatar is directed by James Cameron", you can't say that i made only a passing reference to Cameron, therefore he is insignificant; that is simply the way creators are cited. For more information you need to seek an article on the creator. In this case, Kinuyo Yamashita is the creator of a an extremely well known and important body of work in the genre, already established beyond any doubt as significant by wikipedia itself, the music of Castlevania. Therefore the article needs expansion, not deletion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.64.161 (talk) 01:31, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand that you feel strongly about this, but Wikipedia's guidelines for notability and reliable sources are fairly clear. See WP:BLP, especially BLPSPS and ONEEVENT.  James Cameron has articles written largely about him, see for example, whereas I don't see those sorts of writeups about Kinuyo Yamashita.  Again, I am happy to reverse my stance, just point out where those articles are that I'm missing. Joshua Scott (talk) 02:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. I also do not understand the discounting of the 1up.com source due to the fact that it chooses to attach the name "blog" to that one particular set of news items. The Retronauts section of 1up is host to tons of news pertaining to classic gaming, but may not necessarily fit in with the standard "news" section of 1up.com, as it is more of a special interest topic. The entry is not a personal blog, has a few designated contributors, and I feel that the particular 1up retronauts post in question being written by one of the top ranking staff members of 1up.com should help validate the entry. Regarding your comment about not seeing large articles pertaining to Kinuyo Yamashita (in the james cameron comparison), I think this relates to the comments I've made further down in debate page about pseudonyms. Until recently, many classic video game composers have only been known by their pseudonyms, which are often brushed off and assumed to mean a team of people, or the pseudonyms are so obtuse (i.e. james banana), that people only remember the musical works and not the names behind them. For this reason, the names of these classic gaming composers are just as of recently starting to be recognized, even though their music has always been appreciated. Because of this, I may not be able to show you many articles about yamashita, herself, but I could easily show you a tons of articles on the music she has written. Kinuyo Yamashita, and other classic composers just like her, are just now finally being recognized for their work, so sources that explicitly mention them by name are just now starting the pop up. The most notable of sources pertaining to yamashita have basically all been pointed out in this discussion, but I'm sure more are soon to follow. --NickTheNewbie (talk) 19:09, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * My apologies, I did reverse my position on the 1up.com article (see above). Joshua Scott (talk) 05:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete. As a music composer, we should be looking to WP:MUSICBIO for guidance. Someone who writes for video games doesn't fall easily into any of the criteria, but I looked through the whole guideline to see if there are any criteria which she may meet, and it's just not there. The lack of WP:RS and significant coverage in secondary sources doesn't help her cause either. Wine Guy  ~Talk  10:02, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. I am sorry, but did you really look at them? At least on the the criteria must apply, and for Kinuyo Yamashita we have more than one:
 * Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition (Castlevania and dozens of scores after that).
 * Has had a work used as the basis for a later composition by a songwriter, composer or lyricist who meets the above criteria (her style defined the music of the Castlevania series for years).
 * Has been listed as a major influence or teacher of a composer, songwriter or lyricist that meets the above criteria (either this or the criterion above, works by composers influenced by Yamashita became popular and significant within the genre in their own right).
 * Appears at reasonable length in standard reference books on his or her genre of music (there are still few "standard reference" works for video game music, but the music of Castlevania is almost always referenced).
 * I understand that video game music is a really obscure genre and many people just refuse to take it seriously, but it is notable on its own right, in full compliance with wikipedia criteria for notability, and Kinuyo Yamashita is one of the most influential composers within that genre, and within that genre she satisfies the criteria posted above. No, you won't ever see her on MTV.
 * What we have here is a notable music composer, but with few (more than adequate IMHO) sources to cite in the article. This does not negate a person's notability; it means that the biographical article should be expande, not deleted. I fully agree that in its current state it is lacking. Maybe what we need here is someone who speaks japanese and can provide references from sources published in Japan.
 * I am writing this in good faith, and under the understandment that the subject's notability in general has been established beyond any doubt. Notability in accordance to wikipedia criteria, has also been established, as above. It has also been established in other wikipedia articles, such as Castlevania, Castlevania (video game), and Music in the Castlevania series, with references, and linked to in many more. Michiru Yamane's entry (she is the composer who defined Castlevania's musical style from Symphony of the Night onwards) is no more informative, less cited, and yet doing fine.
 * For all the reasons mentioned above, and according to wikipedia's policies, i strongly support rewriting and expanding the article and not deleting it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.64.161 (talk) 12:26, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 *  Keep . As stated above the relisting, the article has more than enough credible sources to be kept, although it would be best to expand it for safe measure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DJ15Nario (talk • contribs) 15:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC) [[Image:Achtung.svg|20px|]] — Duplicate !vote: DJ15Nario (talk • contribs) has already cast a !vote above.
 * Kinuyo Yamashita defined the environment of Castlevania, for her music within the series is very memorable and makes up a good portion of memories of gamers when the Nintendo Entertainment System Castlevania titles are brought up. In short: bringing up Castlevania for the NES cannot be done without bringing up the music in the titles as well, for the music in the series is so good and go hand in hand with the series. If this article is deleted, then every Castlevania article on Wikipedia might as well be deleted too, for Castlevania wouldn't be what it is today without Kinuyo Yamashita, for she is an important and influential factor in the series. DJ15Nario (talk) 15:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict, replying to comment by 77.49.64.161) Thanks for your comment. I don't question your good faith, and I am familiar with some extraordinary, notable work in the VG music genre; I just don't see that Yamashita is "one of the most influential composers within that genre". Having looked through the links you provided, and their sources, it appears quite clear to me that Michiru Yamane is the composer of note for the Castlevania series, not Kinuyo Yamashita. I see no evidence anywhere which would support the assertion that Yamashita's work on the score of the original game influenced the music created by Yamane, which has become notable. The sources for the Yamashita article also bring her notability into question; like this one "Yamashita, composer of the original Castlevania... as well as the odd classic (Parodius, anyone?)", and this blog, used as a source for Yamashita, mentions that she is present with Yamane, but goes on to say "Yamane is pretty well known at this point;" no such assertion is made about Yamashita. Not exactly ringing endorsements. Wine Guy  ~Talk  20:33, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I find it puzzling how you can assert that Yamane is the composer of note in the Castlevania series, yet Yamashita, whose work the whole series was based upon - a sufficient criterion for notability according to the list that you yourself linked above - isn't. You also didn't debunk this or the other criteria that i commented upon, so where do we stand? Lack of evidence suitable for use in wikipedia does not mean lack of evidence at all - wikipedia is not the real world! Once again i am trying to explain, there is no question of notability "in real life" here. Everyone familiar with the genre is aware of her notability. So the article has a place in wikipedia - that much we have established. The issue is making it a proper entry. The information in Yamane's entry is actually less backed up by citations and references than the current version of this article, yet in her case her IRL established notability seems enough to back that article up. Lack of sources seems to have become a problem for Yamashita's entry, so clearly expansion is needed. If every article that failed to satisfy everyone's evaluation of the provided references was deleted on the spot, wikipedia would be left with a thousand articles give or take a few :).
 * I have to point out some flawed reasoning as well; her work in lesser-known games does not negate her work on Castlevania, nor does the article's mentioning that Yamane is pretty well known negate the fact that Yamashita is well known too. If anything, her reputation is not commented upon because it is taken for granted - again i must stress, within the genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.207.35 (talk) 03:48, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Keep - Though michiru yamane has picked up doing the majority of castlevania composition since castlevania bloodlines, yamashita was solely responsible for establishing most of the main themes in the series through her work on the first game. Her use of a pseudonym (like many other composers of the nintendo era) makes it hard to track down her work based on her name alone, but looking around, I can find some more sources that support this "James Banana" handle she was credited with in castlevania 1.
 * http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,185632/ - not necessarily reliable, but does corroborate other sites
 * http://vgmdb.net/artist/1270 - extensive video game music soundtrack database
 * http://nesdev.parodius.com/authors.htm - list of NES era composers
 * http://www.artofthemix.org/FindAMix/getcontents2.aspx?strMixID=120152 - Seems to be a "mix tape" of some sort. Helps corroborate at the very least
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5yjEgu4JcA - Though this video is from the subject's channel, it does show castlvania music being played at a video games live concert in japan, followed by the host of video games live bring yamashita on the stage to talk about her composition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NickTheNewbie (talk • contribs) 14:45, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * My apologies, I forgot to sign my entry. --NickTheNewbie (talk) 14:49, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem is that none of those sources would be considered as Reliable sources, and most of them can be edited by fans. I am still waiting to see even one reference source that provides more than trivial coverage of the subject of this article. --DAJF (talk) 15:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, like I had mentioned before, the use of pseudonyms makes things blurry, and puts several other composers into question. I mean when you look at composers such as Yuukichan's Papa and Bun Bun, it becomes apparent that this kind of situation is not uncommon, and that extensive research done by (very dedicated) fan sites is sometimes the only way to get the information needed. OCReMix is listed as a source for both yuukichan's papa and bun bun, and a similar article exists for Kinuyo Yamashita. The validity of Original Sound Version as a reliable source has been debated in this page, but it is probably one of the better sources of information on video game music around. The video game music community isn't exactly an exploding industry, so even the most in depth sites may appear to be fan sites at first glance. If it helps OSV's case for reliability any, the executive editor of the site is Dale North, who helps run the major news sites http://www.destructoid.com and http://www.japanator.com/ --NickTheNewbie (talk) 15:36, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The video game music community and industry is a very recent, still emerging phenomenon compared to music in general, and video game music as a subculture is extremely community-driven, almost exclusively by means of the internet. This creates the problem that nearly every available resource can be considered either Unreliable or Original Research. It also makes it virtually impossible to use Google to locate more traditional resources, if any, due to the ratio of scientific resources to fansited being practically zero. Things might be better when it comes to japanese websites, but unfortunately most of us in the west can't read japanese.


 * Maybe there should be a specific policy for video game music and other cultural niches in a similar situation. Compare for example the number of reliable source articles dedicated to Super Mario Bros versus the number of reliable resource articles dedicated to the - well popular and instantly recognizable - music from that game. When it comes to composers the problem becomes even worse, and even for the most popular superstar composers such as Nobuo Uematsu the vast majority of resources are fan-driven, original research, or in some other way unreliable. 79.103.102.249 (talk) 12:13, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

=== Hello Nihonjoe ===

Apparently some people here try to deal with disagreements by banning users. I am pretty sure that you know what Dynamic IP is and how it works. Just because some of my comments come from a different IP address, that makes me a sock puppet? How exactly did you arrive to the conclusion that i am DJ15Nario? I guess because he edits from the same country as me? Or maybe you just don't like an unregistered user voicing an opinion? More importantly, if you disagree with my opinion then maybe you should try discussing instead of banning me - just a suggestion really, i obviously can't enforce this. I guess wikipedia's behavioral guidelines can bend easily if you have admin powers though. Good job encouraging debates and contributions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.17.235 (talk) 23:14, 8 February 2010 (UTC) — 194.219.17.235 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Not sure where you're coming from, but I have no disagreement with you other than you abusively posting under multiple real and fake accounts (as the DJ17Nario "account" is not even registered), as well as logging in under IPs to try to influence the discussion and appear to be more than one person. That's what you were block for, and that's why you've been blocked again (as you are obviously evading a block). Also, I have no idea which country DJ15Nario is posting from. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This all looks like an extremely under-handed way to pull favor for an article's deletion. I can't prove that Nario wasn't posting under multiple accounts before he used the DJ17 one (though I was under the impression that assuming multiple people who are of the same opinion to be sockpuppets was considered bad faith) - but banning AkumuHau as a sockpuppet of Nario's strikes me as particularly silly.  Akumu is a Norwegian VG columnist (who writes for http://kngi.org/, good-evil.net, bossies.org and vgmdb.com), and Nario is an American musician and college student (ex. http://gamemusic4all.com/wordpress/2009/12/nario-most-of-me-debut-album/). This information is freely available online and took me no more than five minutes to research. Conversely, where is the proof that Nario was indulging in sockpuppetry before his first banning?  People disagreed with Sephy (I see he considered some of the comments to be "suspect"), so they got flagged and banned without a second glance, and now every non-account IP address is assumed to be one of Nario's?  This is either a misinformed witch hunt or a gross abuse of power. - Kirby (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 06:54, 9 February 2010 (UTC).
 * And your posting is somewhat suspicious, too. It's been almost five years since you did anything here, and your first action is to come to a deletion discussion and defend someone? It makes me think this is an old account belonging to Nario... ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:50, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Before we continue you need to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_IP#Static_and_dynamic_IP_addresses Now, you are either paranoid or just an admin on a power trip. I am not a registered user and certainly not any of the ones mentioned above. DJ15 and DJ17, yes that looks suspicious, but what the hell does that have to do with me? Where exactly did i post "abusively"? I am trying to have a discussion, all i did is provide proper arguements and references for the article. I only cast ONE vote (which obviously doesn't matter anyway since "the merits of the arguements" is going to be judged by you) and contributed several comments. As for "evading a block" a) i am not doing it on purpose (read the article i linked), and b) it was a malicious block given without any reason, warning or discussion, so i might as well.


 * A bit of a rant while we are at it, this kind of treatment of unregistered users is exactly why i don't want to register despite having contributed to several articles and made countless minor corrections and improvements. Presumed guilty before even being talked to, and sure, because another random guy comes to my defense, that proves that i am a malicious user, lying in wait for five years just to ruin wikipedia by trying to keep this article. Get a fucking grip on reality. You want to be an admin, then maybe read and learn how IPs work, when and how they change. One of the many reasons why i might want to reset my router (when the ISP doesn't reset the line itself) is because someone who has a grudge against me knows my IP and posts it online for everyone to see. So go ahead, delete this article to get it over with. In full compliance with wikipedia regulations (well maybe except that good faith thing but this is pretty much FUBAR by now), you have the power to judge anything against your view to hold no value and everyone who disagrees to be one single evil person. Guess what, i did 9/11 too - and then vandalized the article by posting governemt coverups! Yes that's right, see you again in 2012...


 * PS:if you have anything to contribute instead of banning users who disagree, i am always open to further discussion, if not with you, with wineguy and everyone else. That is of course i am not EVERY person in this discussion! Hahahahaha... seriously, get a grip.


 * Awesome, threaten me instead of responding to anything I said. You're right, I haven't used Wiki in a long time, and because of admins like you, it's unlikely I will again any time soon.  I was directed here from a message board dedicated to video game music, and saw your furiously paranoid banning spree.  It was really easy to disprove one user of being a sockpuppet of Nario's, so you'll forgive me if I assume that everybody banned for their involvement in this discussion also has nothing to do with him.  (Here's me: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=kirby+pufocia&aq=f&aqi=&oq=&fp=c26c79a56c95bda8 - unless you're trying to say that I have been a sockpuppet for Nario across 20 different message boards since 2002) What exactly, has been your criteria?  Because again, the only thing I see in common with everybody banned is that they disagree with the deletion of this article.  I'm open to being proven wrong, but I'm not taking your word for anything. Kirby (talk) 15:38, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * And as for not being able to determine people's countries of origin, I assume you have access to registered users' IP addresses, so you can in fact figure out where anybody is posting from. For example: http://ip-address-lookup-v4.com/lookup.php?ip=77.49.64.161 - you can see that this user (who I believe is the guy posting right above me) is from Greece.  In fact, most of the unregistered comments were from him, not Nario (again, who lives in the US) - so there you have a double dose of assuming bad faith because he has a dynamic IP address and assuming he's a sockpuppet of Nario's because you have an inexplicable grudge against Nario.  Anyway, all I'm asking is that you use this tool, see your mistake, and we can all put this behind us. Thank you. Kirby (talk) 16:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. Seems to meet WP:ENTERTAINER if not WP:BAND for work on multiple video game soundtracks. Wyatt Riot (talk) 20:50, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * To add to my previous comments (and to reiterate what I stated above), at least two sources (1UP.com and MobyGames) are on the WikiProject Video games list of reliable sources. Wyatt Riot (talk) 09:52, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep and expand based on Wyatt Riot's comments above me. Seems enough for further expansion rather than deletion. Preacher Bob (talk) 16:27, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. i dont really care what any of you self-righteous editing wiki-nazis say or think, this composer is as credible as a baroque composer like mozart. you guys are RUINING WIKIPEDIA with your pointless editing. cut it out. -Shawn Phase (who had his account banned by a wiki-editing mongo months ago)141.157.81.77 (talk) 03:04, 10 February 2010 (UTC) (I struck the !vote by Shawnphase - a self-admitted banned user.) Joshua Scott (talk) 04:25, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep This is Jayson Napolitano, the Editor-in-Chief of OSV. I don't see how OSV's validity as a source is in question. OSV is, in fact, an industry resource for numerous composers, audio professionals, and consumers.  We have several link ins from verified game composers' websites claiming that OSV is their primary source of game music information, and our articles have been linked by major blogs including Destructoid, Kotaku, and Joystiq along with industry websites like 1UP.  We work through company PR teams whenever possible, ensuring that the information presented is accurate and true, and develop relationships with composers directly, as in the case of the Kinuyo Yamashita interview, if employees are no longer accessible through official PR departments. It's pretty closed-minded to have a blanket policy that doesn't distinguish between personal and professional blogs.- Jayson Napolitano--Arcubalis (talk) 04:38, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Weak delete I've been chewing over this debate on-and-off all day and my standpoint's gone back and forth. My opinion is that the reliability and depth of the cumulative sources don't quite cut the mustard for a biography of a living person, particularly seeing as the lady's claim to fame is for composing the Castlevania soundtrack (or part of it, Jeremy Parish's 1up piece refers to her being "one of the composers on the original Castlevania"). There is nothing stopping Kinuyo being referred to in the development section of Castlevania and in the KONAMI KuKeiHa CLUB article, based on the 1up piece and OSV interview. I'm not satisfied that the Ready Up piece goes beyond being a self-published source written by Joe Bloggs, looking at the site's about page, which doesn't tell me much. The OSV interview certainly looks a lot more reliable in WP terms, but again I wouldn't hang a BLP on it, the 1up piece is about a concert not just this composer, useful as a source but not a piece that demonstrates much notability. Someoneanother 20:09, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete. We have to avoid "I do/don't like it arguments" on both sides and try to reconcile these cases to consensus policy.  In this case the sources are not significant enough to establish general notability or notability as a creative professional.  I agree with Someone that contribution to the composition of Castlevania can be included in the main article.  The sources are weak and the notability requirements relatively high.  By the way...the "she told me she wants to keep it" argument is completely invalid and should be dismissed in determining the outcome of this debate!  Wikipeterproject (talk) 02:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep This is Justin Pfeiffer, contributing editor and translator for Original Sound Version. Here is some hard evidence of Kinuyo's Yamashita's involvement in the Castlevania soundtrack. It is a scan of the booklet included with the Video Games Live concert CD release, and she is clearly credited as composer for Castlevania, one of the pieces performed at the concert.  Here is another official reference on Amazon Japan of her latest work on the soundtrack for a Japanese PC game called Gunhound.  It is written in Japanese, but the first thing listed in the Product Description is her being the the game's composer.  Feel free to run a translator program if need be.  The reason it has been so hard to find reliable sources on Kinuyo Yamashita is because she has only come into the public light in the last year or so.  With the ever increasing wide-spreading of the internet, more and more Japanese game composers are starting to reach out to their fans worldwide and make themselves known.  It is also very hard to isolate her older references because she was part of a unit named "Konami Kukeiha Club" at the time of Castlevania.  But as you can see here from these official sources, she is in fact for real. The page should stay. Justin Pfeiffer (talk) 02:41, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Weak delete - There's no doubt that she is verifiable (The 1UP article is perfectly fine), she strictly speaking doesn't pass WP:COMPOSER. But it depends on how we can interpret this for video game music (what do we make of "Appears at reasonable length in standard reference books on his or her genre of music."? Do we even have standard reference books on video game music?). I feel that there's room for this information somewhere on Wikipedia, although I'm currently not convinced that she requires a seperate article. What Someone says makes sense - to incorporate this information into the relevant video game articles. Marasmusine (talk) 13:02, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment I am just pasting a comment i posted above, but it got lost in all the mess. It is very relevent to the new votes, so here it is in case you missed:


 * The video game music community and industry is a very recent, still emerging phenomenon compared to music in general, and video game music as a subculture is extremely community-driven, almost exclusively by means of the internet. This creates the problem that nearly every available resource can be considered either Unreliable or Original Research. It also makes it virtually impossible to use Google to locate more traditional resources, if any, due to the ratio of scientific resources to fansited being practically zero. Things might be better when it comes to japanese websites, but unfortunately most of us in the west can't read japanese.


 * Maybe there should be a specific policy for video game music and other cultural niches in a similar situation. Compare for example the number of reliable source articles dedicated to Super Mario Bros versus the number of reliable resource articles dedicated to the - well popular and instantly recognizable - music from that game. When it comes to composers the problem becomes even worse, and even for the most popular superstar composers such as Nobuo Uematsu the vast majority of resources are fan-driven, original research, or in some other way unreliable.


 * I'd also like to emphasize that it seems pointless to ask for sources to verify the reliability of other sources, due to the facts i cite above. It's a vicious circle, and even scientific articles can be claimed to be unreliable, because they are based on peer (=community) reviewed sources and original research. In this case, the resources provided are considered universally reliable within the community. To raise doubt about them would be to investigate the VGM cultural phenomenon as a whole, and that, no matter the outcome, is original research and beyond the scope (and regulations) of Wikipedia. As long as the facts themselves are not doubted, the VGM community should be credible enough for a source. I also must point out that lots of other articles that deal with particular subcultures are supported with sources coming purely or primarily from within the respective communities.194.219.45.249 (talk) 15:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.