Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kiwi Gardner


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was withdrawn by nominator. There are no other valid delete votes at this point and no need to extend this. However, without prejudice as to a possible later nomination if this guy's career does not pan out. Non-admin closure. Safiel (talk) 20:12, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Kiwi Gardner

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Subject fails WP:NHOOPS. Only experience is in the NBA Development League. PROD declined by article creator without substantive explanation. Safiel (talk) 21:07, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Gardner is very well known and is a streetball legend. Also by you logic the article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grayson_Boucher should be deleted as Grayson never played in the nba. Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Owens should be deleted using your logic. Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Champion should be deleted using your logic. Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corey_Williams_(basketball,_born_1977) should be deleted using your logic. Also  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Howard_(basketball) should be deleted using your logic. Point is  many articles fail it but stay up if the players are relevent  and noteworthy. Case closed discussion over. (Mathgenious989 (talk) 23:20, 25 December 2013 (UTC))
 * Just a note that other articles existing is not necessarily a reason to keep this one; see WP:OTHERSTUFF. ~Super Hamster  Talk Contribs 23:26, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Google '' Kiwi Gardner " this will prove me right. (Mathgenious989 (talk) 23:29, 25 December 2013 (UTC))
 * Comment By the way, removing AfD templates from articles is against policy and will not help your case. Safiel (talk) 00:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * By the way i didnt know that until you flagged me for disruptive edIting. You could have said that before you put that on my wall. (00:53, 26 December 2013 (UTC))
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:35, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:35, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:36, 26 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom.  After reading Safiel's comment of 05:31, 27 December 2013 UTC): Weak delete per WP:TOOSOON and per "in the grey area approaching WP:GNG where some editors will legitimately think he meets WP:GNG but I don't think I quite makes it"  If this person played Division I NCAA basketball there might be enough media coverage that he would qualify under WP:BIO or WP:GNG but if this is the case, it's not reflected in the article as of a few minutes ago.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  04:52, 26 December 2013 (UTC) Update With the addition of the NPR article, I'm changing to Neutral and if one more reliable source (excluding sources that routinely cover the D-League team he is on, where the coverage is routine for that publication) with significant coverage can be found, I'll likely move to at least "Weak Keep" but he's not there yet.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  01:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, if he has appeared as himself in a major motion picture, as Grayson Boucher did, he would likely pass WP:BIO. Aaron Owens is a marginal case - yes, he was in some TV shows but was their release well-known enough to serve as an indicator of notability?  That can be discussed on Talk:Aaron Owens.  Philip Champion is likewise in that grey area of notability.  Corey Williams (basketball, born 1977) and Ron Howard (basketball) both pass WP:NHOOPS by virtue of the leagues they played in.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  05:01, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Kiwi played Division 1 basketball at providence and I added that to the article. Kiwi was also one of THE most highly recruited prospects coming out of high school. Kiwi also received attention for his short stature which was found to be inspirational . He also appeared in mixtapes . (Mathgenious989 (talk) 14:00, 26 December 2013 (UTC))
 * Comment Since no one is answering on the debate the page will stay up. (Mathgenious989 (talk) 17:51, 26 December 2013 (UTC))
 * Comment Not your decision to make. Safiel (talk) 05:35, 27 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The page has no assertion of notability. As such i is a candidate for speedy deletion under wp:A7 - but I'm debating whether it would count as wp:BITE to do so.  For the record spamming an AfD with comments that barely indicate notability isn't likely to get you very far.  Delete at a minimum. Neonchameleon (talk) 23:50, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Kiwi plays in the nba d league and he was a STAR in college. and it would violiate BITE if you did that. (Mathgenious989 (talk) 00:13, 27 December 2013 (UTC))
 * Comment Just a note that it's a stretch to say that the page meets the A7 standards for speedy deletion. A7's standards aren't notability, it's lower than that - it's if there is any claim of importance. The claim that a person played for an NBA division and is well-known for their playing abilities established importance for the sake of A7 criteria. ~Super Hamster  Talk Contribs 09:32, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep. He may not satisfy WP:NHOOPS but he passes WP:GNG, which trumps all other specific-genre notability guidelines. Dime Magazines "Kiwi Gardner Desolates The San Francisco Pro-Am" (9/14/2012), Santa Cruz Sentinels D-League Basketball: Kiwi Gardner leads Santa Cruz Warriors in comeback victory over Bakersfield Jam (12/12/2013), D-League Digest's Oakland Native And YouTube Sensation Kiwi Gardner Is Ready For Training Camp With The Santa Cruz Warriors (11/6/2013), SB Nation's Mikki Moore, Kiwi Gardner and the joys of watching the D-League (11/27/2013), and Mashable's A YouTube Legend Battles for his Basketball Future (2013). Jrcla2 (talk) 04:14, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Borderline at best for WP:GNG. Media sources appear to be of a purely local nature. The other sources are league or club related. I should note that the subject went undrafted in the main NBA draft. And something that has not been said. IF this guy can charm his way onto a main NBA team and play in exactly ONE game at the main NBA level, he immediately becomes notable under WP:NHOOPS and automatically gets his article. But right now he fails WP:NHOOPS and can pass WP:GNG only under a very loose interpretation of that policy. Why not wait and see if this guy actually makes it to an NBA club and plays, at which point notability is automatic. This article is simply premature. Safiel (talk) 05:31, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Thank you Jrcla2, at last, an attempt to demonstrate that this person meets Wikipedia's notability standards. Unfortunately, as Safiel points out, these press mentions are in many cases local or put out by the league.  The Dime Magazine is probably the closest thing to a reasonable source, but the fact that its specialty include covering the D-League weakens the claim, in much the same way that a hypothetical magazine that covered every Junior College basketball game would not be suitable for saying that every Junior College basketball player met WP:GNG just because each and every one of them received significant coverage in a specialty publication.  If Sam Laird's Mashable piece was about someone outside his local area or if he was a "national reporter" then his article, which provides significant coverage, would carry much more weight than it does.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  06:38, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Truth be told, if this gets deleted, not a big deal. I have a feeling Kiwi Gardner will get more press (sooner than later) and, when appropriate, his article can get created. If the closing admin feels the sources I've provided pass GNG threshold, then obviously I'll be happy with that decision as well. Jrcla2 (talk) 15:08, 27 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak Delete - per WP:NHOOPS and WP:GNG. Looking online and at the sources Jrcla2 kindly posted, there is indeed independent coverage, but it's pretty loose (being primarily local and/or "bloggy" in nature). Not that it's the most relevant, but as a comparison and standard, many other NBA D-league players in a similar stature have further notability established through either playing in other notable leagues, and/or having an acting career. ~Super Hamster  Talk Contribs 09:32, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Moving to Weak Keep per introduction of NPR interview below - combined with the multiple local news sources, notability is fairly established. ~Super Hamster  Talk Contribs 04:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Weak keep gardner has notabilty and appeared in dime magazine. (Mathgenious989 (talk) 14:43, 27 December 2013 (UTC))
 * Having appeared in Dime Magazine does help with notability but by itself does not establish it, per WP:ONESOURCE. Jrcla2 (talk) 15:08, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep. In addition to Jrcla2's sources, Kiwi Gardner has been profiled by NPR's Morning Edition, which definitely counts as WP:RS.  Oddly, although the piece and the listing for it on NPR's web site says that is a follow-up piece to an earlier October profile, I can't locate the earlier one on NPR's website.  Regardless, at four minutes on NPR's anchor program, it counts as "significant coverage." --Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 14:45, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Typically, two or in some cases more reliable sources providing significant coverage which are independent of each other are needed to "nail down" notability. Other editors may be satisfied with just a single source.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  01:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment The December 31 NPR interview is likely a major change to his notability in the minds of many. Therefore, I recommend that any administrator considering closing this as "delete" re-list the discussion instead, so that whatever consensus forms is formed in light of this new development.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  01:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.