Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kobe (artist)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Black Kite (talk) 18:38, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Kobe (artist)

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

This article does not satisfy general notability guidelines or artistic notability guidelines. Of the 15 references, 9 are to the artist's own web site, 3 are commercial galleries, 1 is commercial, and 1 is social media. Google search on his name, Jacques Saelens, shows that he exists and uses commercial media; we knew that. Google search does not find any significant coverage by independent sources. The article is heavy on peacock language; trimming that out would leave a stub.

There have been a number of versions of this article with different disambiguators. The author changed Kobe (artist) to Kobe (Artist) because it "looks better", but contrary to the MOS. That isn't a reason to delete, but lack of notability is a reason to delete, and tweaking a disambiguator is the sort of editing where no amount of editing compensates for a lack of notability. The article says that the artist searched for beauty, simplicity, and purity, but the article's authors are not searching for simplicity or purity, which means something. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:05, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:05, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:05, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Belgium-related deletion discussions. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:05, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete The best coverage I could find for on this artist is on Wikipedia. I trimmed the article in hopes of finding some decent sourcing underneath all those primary sources, but there isn't any to speak of. A search turned up very, very little.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 05:42, 23 April 2020 (UTC) changing to weak ke*p, see belowThatMontrealIP (talk) 04:33, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Hello, I am Albin Saelens, son of the deceased sculptor, artist Kobe (artistic alias of Jacques Saelens) and manage the website 'www.foundationkobe.com'. I would really love to keep this English wikipedia page about my father and would like to receive more information about what I should change in order to keep the page.
 * You can check on Christie's (https://artist.christies.com/Jacques-Saelens-Kobe--56826.aspx), Artprice (https://www.artprice.com/artist/303542/kobe), Artnet(http://www.artnet.com/artists/kobe-2/), Invaluable (https://www.invaluable.com/artist/kobe-hz4pe1my5u/), Mutual Art (https://www.mutualart.com/Artist/Kobe/11C6655FC263AD81),... that my father was an international recognized artist.
 * My father's sculptures are being cast at Fonderia Artistica Mariani (https://fonderiamariani.com/works/). This is a bronze foundry in Pietrasanta, Italy. Other international sculptors such as Botero, Hanneke Beaumont, Yves Dana, Igor Mitoraj,... also work with this bronze foundry. ((for the moment there is not picture of one of my father's sculptures mentioned on that page, but I have just asked to put a picture of a sculpture from Kobe on that page).
 * There have been already many books, catalogs, and one DVD published about him (see: https://www.foundationkobe.com/publications/) written in Dutch, English and French. Some of my father's works are shown in museums, such as 'Beeldengalerij Het Depot' in Wageningen, The Netherlands (https://www.hetdepot.nl/en/Kunstenaars/Kobe).
 * Some of his sculptures are part of a private collection (https://www.headquarters-katoennatie.com/en/the-bather-kobe) of one of the biggest Belgian companies Katoen Natie. His biggest sculpture (Arcade: 670 x 630 x 440 cm) is in a private collection in Canada.
 * I also work together with an English company named Vastari (they facilitate exhibition loans and tours worldwide) (https://www.vastari.com/contact). We are working on getting some more work of Kobe in international museums.
 * It is correct that my father has not been mentioned (as far as I know) in any English newspaper or magazine article. But there have been enough books and art catalogs published about Kobe, so in other words: I am convinced there is enough coverage about Kobe so that the wikipedia page does not need te be deleted. I do understand and I admit that I am speaking often in a "peacock language" (this is natural because I am his son). Please let me know what I have to change so that the page can stay online. (talk) (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlbinS (talk • contribs) 06:50, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , the way to convince us of this is to say exactly which major collections permanently hold your father's work, and exactly which books and publications (in any language) talk about his work in any detail but are not produced either by his own foundation or by dealers trying to sell his work. All significant information given in the article should be verifiable from these independent sources. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 11:40, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment. A quick search on my part (really nothing extensive) shows that a couple of his works are in major collections (although not the biggest national collections) and at least one of his exhibitions got dedicated coverage (though not many column inches) in a national newspaper. So I suspect he might just about (albeit narrowly) meet the relevant bar for notability. However, as set up now the page is a mess and I'm reluctantly inclining to deletion unless something more substantial in the way of independent sources is forthcoming. --Andreas Philopater (talk) 11:42, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I will do my best to improve this page (more independent sources, information about the collections that hold my father's work, and more information about books/articles). You will have to give me some time to improve the page. What time do I have? Kind regards, Albin (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlbinS (talk • contribs) 15:10, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , you need to stop editing your father's article and use talk page requests instead, as you have a serious conflict of interest, being his son and also running a foundation that supports him. You can contribute your thoughts here, but not in the article. You also need to declare your conflict on your user page.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 21:26, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep with moreref tags on the page. I don't read Dutch, but it seems the artist is represented in museums and catalogs. The page has also been improved since the initial AfD nomination. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:09, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The fact that a biographical subject is an artist who has exhibited does not, on its own, provide the necessary support for inclusion in Wikipedia. -The Gnome (talk) 18:05, 15 May 2020 (UTC).
 * A collection's website - they own the work and not just exhibit it. Then a magazine reference, and the rest, seems to add up to notability. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:22, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * What you call "the rest" are actually more of the same. What we have here is an artist who has exhibited his work. He exists and has exhibited. We agree on this! But, on its own, this fact does not make him notable per Wikipedia's criteria. -The Gnome (talk) 22:59, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   07:49, 30 April 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 21:59, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Subject fails WP:NCREATIVE and even WP:GNG. The emotional investment of the main curator of the article does not make this discussion easy but Wikipedia policy must prevail. The text possibly belongs in specialist publications; not here. This encyclopaedia is not a listing of haphazard information. -The Gnome (talk) 18:05, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Seems to be notable due to the fact that the works are in museums. Expertwikiguy (talk) 18:09, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The fact that the artist has exhibited his work in museums does not render him notable per Wikipedia's criteria. Same thing gos for authors who have been published opr film makers whose movies have been shown. -The Gnome (talk) 22:59, 15 May 2020 (UTC).


 * Delete Exhibitions are not enough. If academics, magazines, etc., have not covered the artist despite the exhibitions, then the exhibitions are really immaterial. User:The Gnome is correct. Psiĥedelisto (talk) 22:15, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. I think this just scrapes through WP:N. Tableau seems to have a substantial article on him (although I can only see it in snippet view).  The book Kobe: ingenious simplicity is co-authored by Kobe's son which detracts from its independence, but as far as I can tell, its publisher, Stichting Kunstboek, is established and reliable. SpinningSpark 00:53, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Changing to Weak keep, with previous d vote struck. This collection, turned up by all the free research above, is decent. Along with the other items found, it's clear that he had some amount of professional recognition, with some coverage and one good collection. It's enough. The son needs to understand that this page is not part of his advertising apparatus.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 04:36, 17 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.