Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Koidanov (Hasidic dynasty)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. WP:SNOW The Bushranger One ping only 21:43, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Koidanov (Hasidic dynasty)

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I speedied this for lack of notability and OR, but another editor (not the original creator) recreated with wikilinks and claimed that the early date made it notable. It still has no references or indication of notability - my wife's family tree goes back further than this, perhaps her family should have an article  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:04, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment As the page's recreator, I felt that the topic was notable enough to avoid a speedy deletion. It is unreferenced, but articles are generally not deleted for that reason.  Personally, I have no idea whether this topic is notable or not -- I would invite comments from the Hasidic community regarding that.  I'm neutral as to whether the article is kept or deleted; I just felt it deserved more discussion than a speedy deletion.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 09:45, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. Firstly, WikiDan61 is correct. Secondly, because this is part of a series, there are at present 109 (one hundred and nine) articles of such Hasidic dynasties in Category:Hasidic dynasties, that also holds 14sub-categories of larger Hasidic dynasties. Thirdly, these articles are valuable and WP is often the only place that outside editors from those worlds have come along and from time to time added information that no-one else could. The Judaism editors have never tampered with these articles because they understand just how tough it is to gather information in this field. Fourthly, the articles often contain lots of information that has been been added by WP:EXPERT editors over the years, and collectively the articles have only been improving over time as each is improved slowly but surely. To rip this one out would do an injustice to all of them. Fifthly, it's more than a good Judaism/rabbis stub and should be left in light of it being part of a greater whole belonging to the Category:Hasidic dynasties. Finally, there are very few Hasidic editors active at any one time, if any at all, so it makes it harder to call on them at such moments. IZAK (talk) 16:04, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions.  IZAK (talk) 16:09, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment IZAK's arguments, while impassioned, do not address the basic problem, and the reason that Wikipedia has notability guidelines in the first place: without reliable sources, none of the information in this article (or in many of the articles in the Category:Hasidic dynasties is verifiable. A rogue writer could come along and write just about anything they wanted about these dynasties (for good or ill) and we'd have no way to know whether the rogue writing was vandalism or not because we have no sources on which to pin the facts.  I would like to see this article kept (perhaps only because I spent so much time cleaning it up), but not without valid sources.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:14, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi WikiDan61: Your efforts are greatly appreciated! This comes back to that old argument about how to build an encyclopedia like WP. Of course RS are paramount, but so is input and core information that editors expert in the field know is valid. If anyone knows of parts that need to be removed then let them propose it. But not every sentence needs to have citation, and not every article must read like it was born "perfect" -- a far better solution would be, especially as it involves something as arcane as this, to take it up at WP:TALKJUDAISM and get input from Judaic editors who deal with this kind of stuff over time. Furthermore, there are good sources with Googling, see KOIDANOV (Jewish Virtual Library -- citing S.E. Stamm, Zekher Zaddik (1905); W.Z. Rabinowitsch, Ha-Ḥasidut ha-Lita'it (1961), 120–7; M. Buber, Tales of the Hasidim, 2 (19663), 153–8. W.Z. Rabinowitsch, Lithuanian Hasidism (1970), 161–9.), from the Encyclopaedia Judaica.), Koidanov Hasidic Dynasty) (YIVO -- researched by Allan Nadler based on Abraham Isaac Bromberg, Mi-Gedole ha-ḥasidut, vol. 20, Admore Nesehiz/Neschiz/Nesrhiz, Lakhovits, Kaydanov, Novominsk, pp. 116–125 (Jerusalem, 1963); Wolf Zeev Rabinowitsch, Lithuanian Hasidism from Its Beginnings to the Present Day (London, 1970),) -- there are more reliable references of all sorts if one has the time to search for them. So you needn't worry about these Hasidic dynasty articles, they are reliable. IZAK (talk) 16:49, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment, I have added more information, as well as quotes and references and the following templates to improve the article/stub: Hasidic dynasties, Jews and Judaism in Europe, Hasidic-Judaism-stub, Rabbi-stub. IZAK (talk) 16:49, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Per IZAK's updates: this topic has been covered in reliable sources of Jewish history. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 17:17, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - The article as it currently exists with the added sources meets the notability standard and there is abundant additional material to add to this and other such articles from reliable and verifiable sources. Alansohn (talk) 17:32, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep the inclusion in the YIVO encyclopedia is proof of notability. This is a selective publication of the highest quality from the world's leading academic organization on the general subject--a secular organization which cannot be suspected of any conceivable  sect-based bias towards inclusion.  DGG ( talk ) 19:09, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Per IZAK's : this topic has been covered in many reliable sources of Jewish history --Yoavd (talk) 07:57, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep, obviously. I added another reference and expanded the article significantly. The current Koidanover Rebbe, Rabbi Yaakov Tzvi Meir Ehrlich, is well-known; when I have more time, I'll expand it some more. Yoninah (talk) 17:06, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Speedy or snow Keep, sufficient reliable sourcing has been found, kudos to the editors for getting this article sourced.   18:54, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.