Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Koljo Karagiosov


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. v/r - TP 14:36, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Koljo Karagiosov

 * – ( View AfD View log )

AfD rationale: As always, more than happy to be proven wrong. Shirt58 (talk) 12:43, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * either this person never existed
 * or this person is a real person who lived and may still be living but fails the general notability guidelines
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bulgaria-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 17:38, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 17:39, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Adding a speedy delete 3 minutes after creation is not good. There are sources out there, but are in Cyrillic which is why you can't find his romanticized name via Google.  Creator of article has created a few more today.  I need to sit down later and research all of them to see if enough reliable sources can be found. Bgwhite (talk) 19:19, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment on comment: A lack of reliable references in Latin alphabet sources for this biography of a European person is a strong predictor of a lack of reliable references in Cyrillic. --Shirt58 (talk) 12:59, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I completely agree with your statement. However, I've rescued articles in the past like this. The author has added "references" to the article.  Everything is in Bulgarian.  Some of the references would be extremely hard to authenticate.  I've asked some Bulgarian speaking editors for help.  There is also some hanky-panky going on with other articles the author created, but will talk with Shirt58 about it elsewhere. Bgwhite (talk) 07:07, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. I completely disagree with that statement. Why would we expect sources in the Latin alphabet to be available for Bulgarians any more than we would expect sources in Cyrillic to be available for Romanians? Europeanness is irrelevant in this context, as, although most European languages are written in the Latin alphabet, some use Cyrillic. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:51, 3 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Speedy Keep The Google translation of these two links indicates that this and the other similarly introduced articles are real enough, and the subjects notable . От светската суета до Бога,  Кратка биография на Васил Карагьозов, Additionally there are multiple refs in the very long article in the Bulgarian Wikipedia. A total hoax there is possible, but very unlikely. Nominating for speedy as a hoax in the presence of such an article in another Wikipedia, and in the absence of anything blatantly impossible, is not sensible. The speedy criterion is for blatant hoaxes -- a hoax that would need investigation to show a hoax is not a speedy. And my rather long experience here with biographies shows   that the absence of  sources on the googles for 19th century and early 20th century people is not a predictor of lack of notability, let alone lack of existence,   As applied to a Bulgarian of any period  , the absence of Latin alphabet sources on the Googles   is a very  dubious criterion; as applied to one in that period, It's nonsensical, even as a preliminary screen. I ask another admin to close this. I shall apologize to the author. Except that the articles were   unsourced at the first edit, they did everything necessary, and seeme  to have done it well (One thing I cannot check from available sources is the possibility of over-extensive paraphrasing)   DGG ( talk ) 19:27, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. Calm down.  The creator of the article added five new articles really quickly and all the articles had no reference.  This is whatShirt58 saw.  He added speedy delete to the articles but they were removed by an IP address that has only edited the five new articles.  The AfD tag has been removed multiple times by the IP address.  Shirt58 should not have done the speedy delete, but should have done a PROD first.  With things being added and deleted, things got chaotic.
 * That being said... There are two external links on the page.  I'm unable to see  as the entire site has a "timed out" error in Firefox.  The second link goes into great detail about Vasil Karagyozov (Vasil Nikolov Karagiosov ), which was one of the five created articles. But I didn't find any mention of Koljo Karagiosov.  The recently added references have Nikola Vasilev Karagyozov or Vasil Karagyozov in the titles. A couple of them are on-line, but they are PDFs of newspapers and Google Translate chokes on these.  This is an example of the reference " Колева Елена, Колева Ивелина, "Кольо Василев Карагьозов - достойният наследник на своите деди", в-к Габрово днес, 21 юли 2011г., стр. 4" or the newspaper Gabrovo Today, 21 July 2011., P. 4.
 * Before anybody says keep or delete, could somebody please point out some references that we can translate into English. If somebody understands Bulgarian, could they please tell us about some of these references. Bgwhite (talk) 20:41, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't claim to a strong understanding of Bulgarian, but I can read enough to see that the PDF that you linked has a whole page of about 2000 words about the subject published to mark the 115th anniversary of his birth and confirming pretty well everything in our article. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:25, 3 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Speedy keep. I just noticed the claim in the nomination that the article subject may still be living. That statement shows that the nominator hasn't even read the article, so this can't be treated as a reasonable nomination. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:37, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment The nominator read the article, but added "and" and not "or", so it sounds funny when reading it. It should have said, "this person is a real person who lived OR may still be living but fails the general notability guidelines." The nominator could have written the nomination a whole lot better.  There still is the question of does Karagiosov meeting GNG guidelines.  (My writing can be alot worse). Bgwhite (talk) 21:03, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "Or" is just as incorrect as "and" when there is no possibility that the subject is still alive. Shirt58 obviously failed to assume good faith when tagging this as a blatant hoax and then failed to reconsider that assumption when nominating here. If this is to be nominated for deletion then it should be on the basis of a good faith examination of whether it meets our policies and guidelines rather than such assumptions. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:44, 3 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete I've asked  DGG to translate a source and I've asked some active members of WikiProject Bulgaria for their input and translation.  It's been five days and all we have is one external link that doesn't mention him and one newspaper article that Phil Bridger says backs up the claims.


 * WP:NRVE states, "The common theme in the notability guidelines is that there must be verifiable, objective evidence that the subject has received significant attention from independent sources to support a claim of notability."   So we have one verifiable source.  That is not enough to support a claim of notability.  Is he even notable?  He as a manager of a textile plant, German honorary vice consul and he donated money.  A plant manager and a honorary consul do not have presumption of nobility. Bgwhite (talk) 08:50, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Could you possibly provide a link the discussions with WikiProject Bulgaria people? --Shirt58 (talk) 11:44, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The proof of notability is in  which Google translates very well, though it has to be done in sections. The pdf newspaper articles can also be handled by Google translate, by using Google's "display as html" feature. The page as a whole won't work, but a copypaste of individual article text does.  Deleting a sourced article because one cannot read the sources is saying that whatever I personally cannot understand, does not belong in the  encyclopedia. We normally extend a presumption of meeting WP:V to articles translated from articles in other Wikipedias, though this on rare occasions has been deceptive, especially when those Wikipedia articles have no sources or are obvious fan-talk. (The various  Wikipedias  use different standards of  notability, and there have been articles in other  Wikipedias not meeting ours, and, I believe, quite a few in the other direction. I have however never seen an article of this nature in another Wikipedia with extensive sourcing in that language that could possibly be a hoax, or an article of this nature that does not meet our notability standards. Contrary to the   down-grading summary of his career in Bgwhite's comment just above, the article I   linked to in this paragraph shows him as a major industrialist.    DGG ( talk ) 14:44, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.