Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kristen Johnson (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. With an RfC pending on the creation of a SNG for beauty-pageant-related material and the arguments here hinging on the existence or lack thereof of such a SNG, there doesn't seem to be much point in keeping it open right now. Can be renominated without prejudice after the closure of the RfC. (non-admin closure) ansh 666 23:30, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Kristen Johnson
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

First off, the previous discussion seems to have related to articles on totally different people with this name. That said, Johnson just does not cross any notability threshold and our sources are very far from being reliable, 3rd party secondary sources. IMDb is not considered reliable, and tries to list as many people as possible with no regard for any level of impact. Nothing suggests that Johnson is notable enough to merit an article. John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:31, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Kentucky-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep We appear to have articles on multiple other Miss USA contestants from the year Johnson participated in. Plus, per WP:ANYBIO she "received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times". Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 19:28, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Keep as per Presidentman.  A quick check on the newspaper link turned up:
 * Unscintillating (talk) 00:53, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Unscintillating (talk) 00:53, 10 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep per above Keep arguments. State winners of major pageants are normally notable. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 12:33, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Not seeing much in the way of sources. If there is an official Wikipedia policy that state winners of beauty pageants are automatically notable, can somebody show us? Even then, I think the general notability guideline would overrule any such guideline, in the sense that such a guideline is in force to lessen squabbling over notability by collapsing past experience (eg it was usually found that state beauty pageant winners were notable, so save your time and just keep it. -- that might be a usual argument.) Here, it doesn't look like this person is notable in terms of media attention.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 22:19, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * WP:GNG may be called a guideline, but it is listed at neither WP:Policies and guidelines nor WP:List of policies and guidelines. Unscintillating (talk) 01:06, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I would say there is a presumption of notability for a state winner of a major beauty contest. If there's not significant media coverage, there's something wrong with the media. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 10:54, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay, suppose one is a reporter for a major newspaper, or an editor there -- what can somebody write about a beauty pageant contestant, that might be interesting to readers? See, it is a tough problem, if the pageant winner doesn't date or marry somebody else interesting, or get involved in a cause, or do something ridiculous, or become entangled in a tax scandal -- without such adventures or misadventures, there is a real threat of such a person being super boring. Which is why the media doesn't write about Kristen Johnson. She's boring, mostly -- the only exception here is her physical beauty which is not boring -- that's pretty much it -- the contests itself are pretty boring having the same format year after year. So her long-legged bikini-clad self with sash is what one will splash on our hypothetical newspaper. Even then, that won't hold attention for long, since even great beauty can only hold the attention span for short periods of time, and there will be more beautiful women in future contests and elsewhere. Now, without much media attention, does this person deserve an article in Wikipedia? Try reading the Wikipedia article: is that interesting to us? Did we learn anything important? I didn't. It is fluff. And, regardless of what lists there are in Wikipedia, the general notability guideline is, in fact, a major guideline, and this person does not meet this guideline.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 11:32, 11 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment I think some of the above rhetoric ignores the fact that Miss USA is not as notable a competition as Miss America. Add to that there are additional such competitions besides these two. I am actually not seeing why major media should devote time to winners of these competitions, and the media generally seems to agree. They only get coverage in very local news sources, such as the paper for the specific locality they come from.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:56, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Miss Kentucky USA where she is mentioned; the subject is not independently notable. Comment: I don't believe that WP:ANYBIO1 applies here: "received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times". Winning a state-level pageant, which is less notable than Miss America, is in no way close to meeting ANYBIO1, which I understand is applicable to something like the Oscar or the Nobel Prize. Moreover, any notability under ANYBIO1 is presumed. It still needs to be demonstrated by "significant coverage in multiple reliable sources". I don't see this coverage here. In short, ANYBIO1 does not trump GNG, and thus this article is eligible to be deleted. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:25, 14 August 2016 (UTC)


 * {| style="background:#AADDFF"


 * Quote from the lede of Wikipedia:Notability
 * Quote from the lede of Wikipedia:Notability

A topic is presumed to merit an article if:
 * 1) It meets either the general notability guideline below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right; and
 * 2) It is not excluded under the What Wikipedia is not policy.

This is not a guarantee that a topic will necessarily be handled as a separate, stand-alone page. Editors may use their discretion to merge or group two or more related topics into a single article. These guidelines only outline how suitable a topic is for its own article or list.


 * }
 * In reply, the use of the word "presumed" has an unclear antecedent. Within WP:Notability (people), the word is used inside WP:BASIC, not WP:ANYBIO.  Above is a quote from the lede of WP:N.  Notability can be presumed without reference to the WP:GNG; in this case, the word on the right, "People", which is a link to WP:Notability (people).  So WP:BASIC, WP:ANYBIO, and WP:GNG all create a presumption of notability.  This quote also shows that WP:N is not a deletion guideline, rather "how suitable a topic is for its own article".  The assertion, "It still needs to be demonstrated by 'significant coverage in multiple reliable sources'." has no foundation.  The conclusion that the article can be deleted likewise has no foundation.  Unscintillating (talk) 16:33, 14 August 2016 (UTC)


 * {| style="background:#AADDFF"


 * Any biography
 * Any biography
 * Any biography


 * 1) The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times.
 * 2) The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field.


 * }
 * Above is from ANYBIO, which is relevant here. Further, applying ANYBIO #1 to a state-level pageant win seems like a stretch as these are no "widely known and significant award". If they were, there would have been coverage sufficient enough to establish individual notability of a winner. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:05, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
 * We need look no further than the minutes from the Webster County fiscal court to know that the world at large considers "Miss Kentucky USA" to be a widely known and significant award. Also, this topic was 2nd Runner-up to Miss USA 2005, Miss Kentucky Teen USA 2000, and 2nd Runner-up to Miss Teen USA 2000.  The assertion, "there would have been coverage sufficient enough to establish individual notability..." is repeating a refuted argument.  Unscintillating (talk) 21:17, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Perhaps Webster County Fiscal Court considers it to be a significant award, but (as I see it) not the world at large. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:22, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
 * At Wikipedia, we don't consider ourselves to be reliable sources. Unscintillating (talk) 13:13, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. North America1000 17:15, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fashion-related deletion discussions. North America1000 17:15, 15 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment – If found to not be independently notable, redirect to Miss Kentucky USA as a valid search term, and the subject is mentioned there. North America1000 17:16, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep for now. Discussion about notability guidelines has already started on the Talk page for the Beauty Pageant project.  No harm will be done by closing this nomination as "keep" and letting the project-level discussion take its course.  NewYorkActuary (talk) 04:02, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: The discussion is taking place here: RFC on creation of consensus standard, with participants variously advocating that (1) state level winners are not presumed notable, (2) state-level winners are not presumed non-notable; and (2) a special guideline is unnecessary, and that GNG should be used. There's an overlap between the these three positions. There aren't really voices for "state-level winners are always presumed notable" so I don't think the outcome of the discussion, if any, would have an impact on this AfD, which is trying to establish whether the subject meets GNG. Thus it may not make sense to suspend the AfD process for this nomination. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:40, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * As a participant in that discussion, I do not agree that this statement includes my viewpoint. Unscintillating (talk) 12:51, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The statement incorrectly states that this AfD "is trying to establish whether the subject meets GNG". This AfD is discussing WP:Deletion policy, which includes both WP:ATD and WP:DEL8.  WP:DEL8 doesn't specifically mention WP:GNG.  It does specifically mention WP:BIO, which includes WP:ANYBIO #1.  Unscintillating (talk) 12:51, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not following; the nominator stated: "Johnson just does not cross any notability threshold and our sources are very far from being reliable" -- this appears to be related to GNG? (i.e. the person is not notable - ?) K.e.coffman (talk) 01:36, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Note that there is no WP:DEL-REASON in the nomination. Unscintillating (talk) 00:18, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, at WP:DEL8 I added "WP:GNG," which already had WP:N; and added ", with consideration given to the alternatives to deletion." Unscintillating (talk) 00:18, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: At this point, we have better delete arguments, since they are better backed up by the policies or guidelinges or whatever, but keep arguments are more numerous. I was considering to close this as no consensus, but since it was here only for one week, and participation is not that high, I decided to relist it for one more week.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:51, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ymblanter (talk) 06:51, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete she has not won a national title. Being Miss Teen Kentucky does not confer notability.  I see no other claim to notability  and I cannot find sufficient reliable, secondary source coverage of Johnson to pass WP:GNG.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:32, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Notability is not conferred. Miss Teen Kentucky is a red link.  Unscintillating (talk) 00:28, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Because the title is Miss Kentucky Teen USA not Miss Teen Kentucky. PageantUpdater (talk) 00:30, 31 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Beauty Pageants-related deletion discussions. PageantUpdater (talk) 00:30, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Beauty Pageants-related deletion discussions. PageantUpdater (talk) 00:30, 31 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep for now with my candid hope being that this'll be closed with no consensus pending the on-going RfC on the issue. It's not yet clear that two state-level wins won't be deemed enough, and as a matter of community process (this having kicked up enough dust to wind up with an ANI and at least two RfCs that I see), I think it's better to wait on confirmation there so a deletion can have the backing of consensus. Innisfree987 (talk) 21:55, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep for now pending outcome of SNG for pageant RfC discussion.  Aoziwe (talk) 12:19, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Keep as per Presidentman (first comment on the list). She is a state winner of a major beauty contest. --Teslard (talk) 12:28, 8 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.