Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kurdish mythology


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. The general feeling here is that the subject is legitimate, but the article we have now needs improvement. There were some arguments to move this to draft space, but I'd be hard pressed to declare a consensus to do that, so we'll keep it. -- RoySmith (talk) 00:40, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Kurdish mythology

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The entire content of the article is Original Research and just refers to Iranian mythology (see Zahhak, Kāve). The only source used in the article is a book by a journalist, the book is unscholarly, no sources are cited in the book. There is already the Origin of the Kurds and the Kurdish nationalism article, which is more appropriate, or the artcile could be moved to "Kurdish national myth". This article is written like a personal reflection or opinion essay that states the Wikipedia editor's particular feelings about a topic, rather than the opinions of experts. Lrednuas Senoroc (talk) 22:29, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - historic origin and mythology are not the same thing - Kurdish mythology refers to things like Shahmaran. The Kurds are an ancient people, distinct from the Iranians despite many links, and I don't see why their mythology is any less notable than that of other cultures. Sources exist. —Мандичка YO 😜 07:46, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
 * There is nothing about Shahmaran in the article and Shahmaran is not specifically Kurdish, the folklore is found in many Middle Eastern cultures. Every human being is an "ancient people", but the earliest attested usage of Kurds meaning a concrete ethnic group is only from the medieval period. The Kurds enter the historical record at the end of the medieval period, during the Safavid era. It is not about whether their mythology is any less notable, but about the current content and status of the article, which don't justify to keep the article, also Articles for deletion/Buddhist mythology is up for deletion. Also those sources you link are either fringe nationalist sources or about current affairs, not scholarly works on mythology. --Lrednuas Senoroc (talk) 12:18, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Incubate/DRAFT/whatever-it's-called-now. This is an almost perfect example of an article which falls under WP:ARSSCOPE. De Guerre (talk) 23:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

So far we have these claims in support of the article:
 * Things like Shahmaran could be discussed in the article.
 * But Shahmaran is not currently discussed in the article. And all those things (Shamaran, Zahhak, Kave) happen to be part of Iranian mythology, though it seems that other Middle Eastern cultures in the region, including Kurdish, share this folklore, with slight variations. So far we have no scholarly sources on anything that could be classified as specifically Kurdish mythology. These things should rather be discussed in articles on Middle Eastern mythology, Anatolian mythology or Iranian mythology.
 * The Kurds are an "ancient people" so there must be something. "Sources exist"
 * Ancient people usually refers to Antiquity, with Kurds this makes no sense since they only enter the historical record in the late medieval period. What we need are scholarly sources on Kurdish mythology, which don't seem to exist. We don't even have historical sources for the Kurds prior to the the medieval period. The current status of this article does not merit an article, and it's not likely that scholarly sources will be found. The sources mentioned so far are not scholarly works on mythology, they are fringe nationalist sources or unscholarly works on current affairs.
 * This article could actually be part of a kurdification strategy of kurdish nationalists to claim Yazidi, Assyrian, Iranian and other cultures as "kurdish mythology". We have already enough articles on national mysticism on wikipedia, we don't need to invent new ones.--Lrednuas Senoroc (talk) 19:12, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:38, 4 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment I should point out that the nominator was indef banned two days after this nomination. The matter is currently at is being discussed ANI under the heading at IP-jumping editor with an anti-Kurdish bias . Correction, the nominator claims to be entirely unrelated to the blocked editor who has an almost identical username and that their interest in Kurdish articles in this case is entirely coincidental. I've struck through my comments. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:32, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * No,, your first comment was basically correct. The nominator of this AfD was discussed under said header (now archived) and ended up blocked for impersonating another user. You were confused by the similarity of the user names of the impersonator and impersonatee. --Hegvald (talk) 15:38, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Yes, what a confusing (to me anyway) little mixup two almost identical names and in such a narrow field of interest. Anyway, more importantly, I've no opinion on the real matter at hand, except that a) Kurds are clearly a distinct ethnic group and b) virtually all such groups have a mythology main article.  Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:54, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * a) Not so clearly, as the Kurds article says, the Kurds are ethnically very diverse. b) No, there is no article on Yazidi mythology for instance. Many of the mythology articles of even large groups redirect to other articles, like Ancient Mesopotamian religion, Religion in pre-Islamic Arabia, Folklore of the United States). --Lrednuas Senoroc Temp (talk) 12:34, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — UY Scuti Talk  19:50, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: It should be clear, looking at (quickly blocked) OP's history, that this is a bad faith nomination.  —Мандичка YO 😜 21:25, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Although as I write this, to my surprise, Articles for deletion/Buddhist mythology has popped up, from a different editor. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:34, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Have I accidentally wandered onto the weird part of en:wp? I'm tempted, based on this information, to change my vote to "snow keep", but I still think the article could do with ARS attention. De Guerre (talk) 00:01, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: May I suggest to some to read WP:AGF again. It is unfortunate that some always have to resort to personal attacks instead of bringing rational arguments for or against the article.
 * The article could not be so innocent as it appears to outsiders, it could be part of an irredentist strategy of cultural appropriation by kurdish nationalists to claim Yazidi, Assyrian, Iranian and other minority cultures as "kurdish mythology". Examples of this strategy:
 * Some Yazidis expressed concern over forced assimilation into Kurdish culture and identity. Some have accused the Kurdish parties of diverting US $12 million reconstruction funds allocated for Yazidi areas in Jebel Sinjar to a Kurdish village and marginalizing them politically.[7] According to the Human Rights Watch, in 2009, "The goal of these tactics is to push Shabak and Yazidi communities to identify as ethnic Kurds. The Kurdish authorities are working hard to impose Kurdish identity on two of the most vulnerable minorities in Iraq, the Yazidis and the Shabaks".[8]
 * Kurds have annexed Assyrian, Yazidi and Shabak villages which are now under Kurdish Control in North Iraq.[5] In some towns, Assyrian politicians have been replaced with Kurdish ones.
 * Yazidi activists have reported that, since 2003, there have been numerous cases of Yazidi women being abducted and forced to marry members of the Kurdish security force Asayish. A report from Minority Rights Group International.[9]
 * A quote from a lawyer Kuryo Meytap in an interview: "The policy of Kurdification is operated for decades. The Assyrian history is systematically distorted, many Assyrian villages still be kept busy, the names of the Assyrian cities and villages are specifically converted into Kurdish."[13]
 * According to Hunain Qaddo, President of the Iraqi Minorities Council, Shabaks are currently undergoing a process of Kurdification.[14]
 * On 15 August 2005, Shabaks organised a demonstration under the slogan "We are the Shabak, NOT Kurds and NOT Arabs", demanding recognition of their unique ethnic identity.The demonstration came under fire from Kurdistan Democratic Party militia.[15]
 * In 2008, Mr Mirza Ismail, chairman of London Yezidis Community-Canada, accused the Kurdistan Regional Government of forcing Yazidis to register as Kurds, expanding Kurdish settlements in Yazidi regions, and forcing Yazidis out of Sinjar city.[17] --Lrednuas Senoroc Temp (talk) 12:34, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: I hope you don't mind, I fixed the formatting of your big comment. AGF would also seem to imply not assuming cultural appropriation. I may not have been clear with the "snow keep" comment, so here's the thing: If this is a controversy about nationalistic politics, there is no possible way that we are going to sort it out in AfD. Good on you for being WP:BOLD, but I vote to take this more slowly. Start on the article's talk page. De Guerre (talk) 06:15, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The main issue is still that the article currently is a stub that is very poorly referenced and that no scholarly sources for "kurdish mythology" seem to exist. Google books shows about 10-20 books, none of them are comprehensive and scholarly works on mythology, the most relevant of them (about mythology, not about politics) is a book from Books LLC.
 * There are no scholarly sources, and the articles on Kurdish folklore, Origin of the Kurds, Kurdish nationalism, Ancient Mesopotamian religion, Religion in pre-Islamic Arabia, Middle Eastern mythology or Anatolian mythology could be expanded.--Lrednuas Senoroc Temp (talk) 09:08, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Paranormal-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:29, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:29, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sam Sailor Talk! 01:11, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, the article definitely needs rewriting and citing, so I'd not oppose Userfy as the decision. I think the topic very probably deserving of an article, which doesn't mean that this sorry piece of uncited WP:OR is it.


 * David McDowall's A Modern History of the Kurds (I. B. Tauris, 2004) states "Various myths exist concerning Kurdish origins. The myth that the Kurds are descended from children hidden in the mountains to escape Zahhak, a child-eating giant, links them mystically with 'the mountain' and also implies, since the myth refers to children rather than one couple, that they may not all be of one origin. A similar story suggests that they are descended from the children of slave girls of King Solomon, sired by a demon named Jasad, and driven by the angry king into the mountains. Another myth claims the Prophet Abraham's wife Sarah was a Kurd, a native of Harran, and thus validates Kurdish identity within the mainstream of monotheism. There is a danger of outsiders dismissing such myths as worthless; they are valuable tools in nation building, however dubious historically, because they offer a common mystical identity, exclusive to the Kurdish people."


 * Also of interest is Kurdish Oral Literature (ed. Philip Kreyenbroek, 2010) which tells the story of Kawe the blacksmith connected to Shahname and the myth of Newroz, which I think others have mentioned above. There are thus definitely Kurdish myths to be discussed and cited in the article. On Shahmaran, that the myth is shared by the Kurds is I think sufficient for it to be included in an article on this topic, as long as the sharing is noted.


 * We have the choice, therefore, of rewriting and citing the article now, of userfying it, or indeed of the WP:TNT option of telling people to start over. Whichever it is, an article should cover the topic, and the current one needs to be replaced. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:17, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Given that the nominator is the previous ID of User:Hassan Rebell, who has been indef blocked for his misuse of Wikipedia to mass delete Kurdish culture articles for Turkish nationalist reasons, WP:AGF really no longer applies. As Chiswick Chap points out, we do have a choice: to delete or to keep it and improve. Per WP:DENY, I say we keep and tag for improvement, or userfy, close this Afd, and move on. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:39, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment Just to be clear on establishing consensus, I also agree with userfy as a reasonable option. De Guerre (talk) 06:49, 16 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep Even if this article is in flux now, the topic itself is objectively notable. Zezen (talk) 00:23, 19 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.