Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/L. L. Clover (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. &mdash;Darkwind (talk) 03:01, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

L. L. Clover
AfDs for this article: 
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Local pastor who started an unaccredited defunct seminary that itself was deleted as unnotable from Wikipedia two years ago.

This article was created for self-promotion. User:Billy Hathorn, now banned but still active with sock puppets, started this article, which is mainly sourced to one article written by Hathorn in a local history journal (also up for afd at Articles for deletion/North Louisiana History (North Louisiana History nomination)). Out of the 20 citations, Hathorn cited his one article in about half. The other references are Clover's wife's local obituary, a deadlink at geocities, the Social Security Death Index, a genealogy website that cites a census, and a link to amazon (that lists an unavailable self-published book, see below).

This article has been tagged for notability for about two years. The previous afd at Articles for deletion/L. L. Clover ended in no consensus. The basis for those who wanted to keep this was Clover started Louisiana Missionary Baptist Institute and Seminary, an unaccredited and defunct seminary. However, WP:PROF applies to "a highest-level elected or appointed academic post at a major academic institution or major academic society." The defunct unaccredited school was never a "major" academic institution, and was found unnotable and deleted here: Articles for deletion/Louisiana Missionary Baptist Institute and Seminary (2nd nomination).

Regarding Leander Louis Clover's authorship, there is no listing for any publication by this Leander Louis Clover in libraries throughout the world. There are four books by LL Clover listed, but on closer inspection those self-published books (published by Louisiana Missionary Baptist Institute and Seminary), such as Evil spirits: intellectualism and logic are not available in any library in the world. Thus, his publications aren't notable.

Clover fails to meet Notability (people), especially shown with the depths of sources Hathorn used: trivial mentions from the national census, social security death index, Hathorn's own article and a amazon listing of a self-published book you can't get from any library. It seems like this article was simply one of many articles User:Billy Hathorn created to promote his work, and is one reason the community was annoyed and led to his ban. (See: "Billy Hathorn appears to create a new article for every single obituary or newspaper story he reads" at Requests for comment/Billy Hathorn.) Hathorn's motivation for writing about Clover could be his personal connection to the area and his religion.

There are no sources to establish notability.

Also Hathorn (actually a photo of a photo), according to the summary it is from a 1966 yearbook. It is unclear how Hathorn owns the rights to reproduce content from the yearbook. Given the history he has of uploading images that aren't his, its likely another copy-vio. SalHamton (talk) 18:21, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2013 March 28.  Snotbot   t &bull; c &raquo;  18:38, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 09:48, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 09:48, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 09:49, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete (based on comment to my questions). --Lquilter (talk) 16:40, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Do the works authored by Clover all relate to the history of his own church and his own particular exegesis of his religious views? Or are they independent assessments of larger organizations?  Can anyone who worked on this article or read the materials explain, in plain words, what Clover's significance is?  Because if it's just to his church, and his church is a small, otherwise non-notable church, then I would say he is non-notable.  I can be persuaded as to his notability if either (a) he has done scholarship that is influential, and is broader than expounding his own religious views; or (b) the church he was involved in and his works about it and its faith are themselves notable. --Lquilter (talk) 20:34, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * His work is not available from any library and isn't reviewed/cited by others. What he wrote about can only be surmised from the title since that's all there is. SalHamton (talk) 19:01, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Sounds like he's basically the founder of a small religion and his works simply propound his particular religious beliefs. Without any showing of broader notability for his religion, then, I'm going with delete. --Lquilter (talk) 16:40, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete The mere fact of having published a book on any subject, be it local or world-wide, is not evidence of notability as a writer. Only publication by a highly respected publisher, or multiple references in books or journals which are published by one qualifies an author as notable. Clover's writings are apparently published "in house" by small baptist presses. They are found in a couple of seminary libraries, but (unless space is at a premium) librarians tend to hold any title both to increase the size of their holdings and because it might be useful for research at some point.  Clover does not satisfy Academic notability. His works appear in the second-hand listings of Amazon.  In terms of general Notability a check on Google showed that there are a lot of inadequate sources of the type already given here (in some cases, probably echoes of these last. Jpacobb (talk) 15:29, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep -- I would be happier of we had an article Louisiana Missionary Baptist Institute and Seminary on the institution that he founded, but that seems to have survived his passing away. It may only be a small college, possibly not of high academic standards (I do not know).  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:48, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:PROF applies to "a highest-level elected or appointed academic post at a major academic institution or major academic society." Louisiana Missionary Baptist Institute was never a "major" institution. (If fact, it was deleted because there weren't even basic sources about it: Articles for deletion/Louisiana Missionary Baptist Institute and Seminary (2nd nomination).) It is unclear, because of there are no independent sources, if Clover was "elected," "appointed" or made himself the head of it. Please also note that policy does not apply to school founders, even if were a major institution. Lastly you claim "that seems to have survived his passing away". If you go to its poorly formatted website there are no classes listed, no staff and no faculty. It's not clear if it operates or when it stopped operating, but even if it were clear, the institution's article was still deleted because it is unnotable. Simply put, this subject lacks sources to write an article about. SalHamton (talk) 18:59, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps "seems to have survived" was a typo and meant to read "seems not to have survived"; that makes more sense. The fact that the religion/seminary/whatever doesn't seem to have survived its founder & chief proponent's death is further indication of its lack of notability. --Lquilter (talk) 16:41, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * delete per nom. Pass a Method   talk  14:50, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I wonder if there is not an argument for being the founder of an academic institution as being its own mark of notability. It would seem the founder of an academic institution, at least if he imbued it with his philosophy, would be more notable than a later president.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The issue is can a person meet WP:GNG with non-trivial reliable sources, or not. An unnotable founder of an unnotable alleged degree mill is still unnotable, whether they call that business a "university" or not. If the school is notable then there will be sources on its founder(s), such as with Harvard University's John Harvard. In this case, the "school" was deleted as unnotable (Articles for deletion/Louisiana Missionary Baptist Institute and Seminary (2nd nomination)). Why should Wikipedia allow the creation of unnotable articles on the basis of their connections to "schools" that themselves lack verifiable, independent reliable sources? SalHamton (talk) 14:58, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.