Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/L3121 road


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. The "keep" comments do not address the issue of notability, a well-established guideline, by providing sources covering this road. WP:CSB is not an established exception to WP:N; if anything, it is an argument to delete those thousands of nonnotable US road articles.  Sandstein  11:13, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

L3121 road

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Non notable local road of which there are thousands in Ireland. No reason why this one should get an article. Snappy (talk) 06:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions.   —Snappy (talk) 06:53, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions.   —Snappy (talk) 06:55, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about, you maniac? That's my favorite road in all of Tipperary! No, wait, I mean delete as one of jillions of roads that cannot and should not have their own articles.  Graymornings (talk) 07:44, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Is wikipedia running out of space? Seighean (talk) 18:24, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a very poor argument, scraping the barrel a bit there. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information on everything and that includes 4th tier Irish country roads. Try providing reliable secondary sources instead for this road for a start. Snappy (talk) 00:05, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Just out of curiosity, what constitutes a "reliable secondary source" for a road, other than an actual photograph of it and directional signage? Seighean (talk) 00:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please familarise yourself with WP:RS. Is the L3121 famous or notable for something? (having a sign doesn't count, that means its verifiable not notable) Any mentions in local or national media? Did a famous historic event take place there? Any buildings of note on the road? Any notable people born or grew up there? Is anything at all that makes this road notable, all we have so far is that it is a) somewhere near where you live b) has a sign c) connects point A to point B. We need more than that for a wikipedia article, Tx, Snappy (talk) 00:57, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't mind if this is deleted, don't get me wrong, but the decision seems arbitary. a) If we can have "Regional Road" articles, why not L road articles?; b)The road is named on official directional signage; most L roads are not. If it's officially named, then, I believe, it should have an article as a legitimate piece of road infrastructure no different from any other. That's my position. I don't see how wikipedia stands to gain from its removal. By the way, Graymornings, writing in a sarcastic tone is in no one's interests.Seighean (talk) 18:51, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think I was being sarcastic - more like a lame attempt at a joke. That road has never been my favorite in Tipperary. Too bumpy. ;-) I wasn't aware that there were many articles like this on North American roads (or roads in any country, for that matter). I know WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS isn't usually a valid argument, but in this case, Stifle's got a point - we can and should improve geographical coverage on non-US articles. So, after thinking about over a cup of coffee, keep. Definitely needs either more sources or the removal of the unsourced material, though - the nicknames for the road and its condition aren't in the source provided.  Graymornings (talk) 20:35, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll remove the uncitable information if the article survives the deletion motion. *Keep, by the way.Seighean (talk) 20:46, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - No one has explained why Local road is notable, it is one of many thousands of normal, unremarkable, quite boring and somewhat dull roads all over Ireland. Other than that the creator of the article apparently lives in the vicinity, I don't think it is notable in any way. It has a sign on it but just because it is VERIFIABLE doesn't mean it is NOTABLE. This L3121 appears only to connect point A to point B and nothing else. There is no mention of historic interest, or buildings or anything else. This also sets a bad precedent, it could mean a spate of local roads articles, about narrow boreens with grass in the middle going "from the O'Briens house to the local school" etc. There are many Regional roads articles that need creation, these roads are less numerous (about 800+) but more important than local roads and currently only about 120 have articles. Snappy (talk) 00:05, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Notable" is a very nebulous concept. Besides, I disagree that we'll have thousands of L road articles. The reason? The huge majority aren't named. But this one is. As I've said, if it's deemed important enough to appear on official signage then it's worthy of some record in my view. But delete it if you must. I don't see what all the fuss is about. The article has beem categorised, it links to other related articles, and it contains an image. It is in no way rogue; it's just novel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seighean (talk • contribs) 00:24, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The concept of notability has been well discussed on wikipedia. Lots of guidelines and criteria exist now, since you appear to be a new user please familiarise yourself with them. You think this road is notable, I think it is not. Other editors will contribute with their views and a consensus will be reached to keep or delete. That's how it works here! Snappy (talk) 00:57, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, sir, so far several other people whose opinion you sought have disagreed with you. Now, I'm done with this discussion. As for "notability", please don't fob me off. I am very aware that the definition of "notable" is a matter that is far from clear-cut on wikipedia, as evidenced here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_Wikipedia#Notability_of_article_topics . It was simply my intention to contribute in some small way to wikipedia by providing a short article that might be of interest and informative to certain readers (isn't that what all articles here are essentially for?). That was it. As I've said, I do not see how wikipedia loses by retaining this article, nor haven you spelled it out, either. (BTW - I did not say in this article that I'm from the area, so you might stop introducing it into this debate.) Now, thankfully I have better things to be doing than debate a rather tiny point over the internet with a stranger. Goodnight.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seighean (talk • contribs) 01:15, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This a discussion of whether this road is notable not about notability on Wikipedia. So far, you have failed, despite repeated asking, to provide anything that demonstrates that this road is notable. Also, your edit history clearly demonstrates your connection with County Tipperary, so you have a local bias, nothing wrong with that, but if you were from County Louth would you be creating this article, probably not! Also that argument that it doesn't matter to wikipedia if there is one small article on this road is actually false, if every back road on the planet gets an article then it degrades the quality of the whole encyclopaedia. Perhaps Wikialtlas would be a better place for it. Final question, how is the L3121 encyclopaedic? Snappy (talk) 06:40, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * When you say this: "Also, your edit history clearly demonstrates your connection with County Tipperary, so you have a local bias, nothing wrong with that, but if you were from County Louth would you be creating this article, probably not!", what on earth is your point? If I lived in County Louth, would I have taken pictures for the Jack Lynch Tunnel, Fermoy, M8 or Knockmealdown Mountains articles? Probably not! Seighean (talk) 20:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. There are many thousands of road articles for roads in North America, and deleting articles relating to roads in another country would fail WP:CSB. Stifle (talk) 19:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that logic flows actually, those articles have to rise to the same notability standards. -- Banj e  b oi   02:52, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I've encountered road and turnabout articles previously so am guessing this is not a hoax but really there is nothing in the present version that suggests this road is notable. Is there any reliable sources suggesting this road is a landmark or otherwise notable? -- Banj e  b oi   02:52, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Would it not be wise to mark the article as a stub and wait for someone, a historian perhaps, to expand it in time? The village of Golden is quite historic and notable, and I believe that in past centuries the L3121 was a fairly prominent trunk route. I have no source for that to hand, so I didn't include it. But surely we can let the article 'grow' over time. What is the rush to delete it? It's not misinforming anyone, and it provides an information link netween several other articles (the M8, the R639, New Inn, Golden, the N74) that adds, overall, to wikipedia's coverage of the area's geography. Seighean (talk) 03:17, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Excuse me? Past centuries? If this road has been around that long, that is the notability, IMHO. Based on that I'd like someone versed more from historical aspects to weigh in then to see what is verifiable. That is, I think the road itself may be notable for how old it is as well as historical events that can be tied to it. -- Banj e  b oi   06:16, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, strange argument, you're more or less admitting the L3121 is not notable but don't delete it because someone else may in years to come, might discover something about it that makes it notable. Sorry, but that is flawed because if it is not notable now, there is no guarantee that some facts making it notable will be discovered in the future, and if notable facts are discovered then the article may be re-created. Btw, Banjeboi, most Irish country roads are probably as old as this one so again this doesn't means its notable. Golden the village is notable, so maybe the L3121 article should be merged into it. Snappy (talk) 06:59, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hence my point that someone more versed in the history of the area would be able to help inform the decision. Is this, in fact, just one of thousands of old roads or does this one because it's been around so long have historical events tied to it. Many folks live next to and regularly travel historic paths but are blissfully unaware of the history - this is why historians are often quite useful. I haven't admitted there is no notability only that the article presently gives no indication of such. -- Banj e  b oi   07:17, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete We delete local roads in the US, and should do so elsewhere at all. There is not indication of any other notability. If it is in fact an historic route, then rewrite the article with some appropriate material. I supported some articles on Irish streets where there was in fact some historic or literary of commercial significance, but I really do not see any here. DGG (talk) 07:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete As with other road articles in all of Wikipedia, there are some roads that just don't need to have articles. Chances are, the road in front of your house isn't notable enough. So what makes a road notable? Well, the root word of the word "notable" is "note", as in "noteworthy". THERE ISN'T A SINGLE THING ABOUT THIS ROAD THAT IS NOTEWORTHY. It has a name and actually exists (unlike Antarctica Highways)... so what? If it was the road traveled by the Third Infantry during World War II, that would be notable. If it was the location of 3 roadkill murders, that would be notable. Heck, if it was a vital route connecting two important towns, that would be notable. It's none of these things. It's a local road, which redirects to SIDE ROAD. Sorry to be sarcastic here, but I don't see any reason this article should be kept. Part of the short article states: "While generally straight, the L3121 is very humpy, poorly lined, and has no hard shoulder." which I think is an opinion, and might even be a sexual innuendo. We've deleted articles that had more written than this one in America, one of which was Bringle Ferry Road, which was a long road, providing one of the few bridges across High Rock Lake and access to Dan Nicholas Park. --Triadian (talk) 00:00, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: For everyone's reference, this is the actual road. It runs from Golden to Newinn so you can connect the dots: --Triadian (talk) 06:58, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per all the reasons already stated. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. In order to exist, the article at least needs to demonstrate SOME significance. Trusilver  08:04, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Historical citation A historical reference for the road, detailing its condition and standard in 1893, is now cited in the article.Seighean (talk) 19:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * After only a few days in existence I've already found a referenced, historical account of the road, contained in the Devia Hibernia, which itself deserves an article. Seighean (talk) 20:03, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * So you're saying the most notable thing about this road is that it is "'level and broad' while having a surface that was 'stony or sandy' to 'fair'" in 1893... Well I know a nearby field that was probably level and broad in 1893. I still say it doesn't meets notability guidelines by a longshot. It's a side road (secondary road at best), not a route. I doubt even that guidebook makes notability as an article.--Triadian (talk) 20:33, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I did not say that. Do not put words in my mouth. I was challenged to come up with published data; and I did. I was challenged to come up with historical data; and again, I did. I think this is why articles like this should be kept for a while - one never knows what might turn up. Now we are after getting a potential second article, one of greater importance - the Devia Hibernia - because I had to find a source for this road article. One article can lead to the generation of another. Seighean (talk) 20:45, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Just FYI: VERIFIABILITY is not the same thing as NOTABILITY. Just because you can find something, somewhere that mentions the street, doesn't mean it suddenly becomes notable. Trusilver  21:25, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This Devia Hirbernia provides a list of all roads (thousands of them) in Ireland at the time. Looking at the first couple of pages I see a road from Abbeydorney to Ardfert, which isn't actually notable either. This book proves that the L3121 (or whatever it was called then) existed in 1893 (but that wasn't in question), is still doesn't prove it is notable. Just because something has been around a while doesn't automatically confer notability on it. This road should have something distinctive or unique about it so that it justifies an article, while many thousands of other Irish minor roads don't. Snappy (talk) 02:08, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: For an idea as to why some of us are arguing for deletion, this page might help. It's how we go about roads in the U.S.. I know Ireland is different and should be respected, but for relative purposes, the argument holds. --Triadian (talk) 20:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That would also bring up WP:CSB, as the United States has subsections for every state whereas most countries don't have any and no project covering them. The US isn't where the majority of notable roads are yet the vast majority of all road articles are related to the US. 71.139.39.189 (talk) 02:03, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Not exactly, because by phrasing the comment the way I did, I meant to quell any suspicion of WP:CSB. I offered it as a point with which you can relate; I'm not proposing any systematic bias here. --Triadian (talk) 03:24, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep to WP:CSB. US roads are covered by the thousands.   Jerry   delusional ¤ kangaroo 02:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * But the U.S. is much larger than Ireland. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:12, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Knowing the root of the systemic bias does not give us license to ignore it.  Jerry  delusional ¤ kangaroo 02:23, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You miss the point: there are more roads in the U.S. than in Ireland so of course there will be more road articles related to the U.S. than Ireland. --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:30, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Even CSB doesn't give you an excuse to have an article with nothing NOTABLE. There's nothing notable about this road period. Nothing currently written is notable and nothing could be scrapped together a year from now to make it notable. It's just not notable: past, present, and future. --Triadian (talk) 04:08, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The suggest that we combat WP:CSB by throwing in some articles that completely fail WP:N is ridiculous. Trusilver  04:32, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict)Weak delete as it is neither a primary or secondary road, but a designated Local Road. The U.S. argument above is a red herring as WP:USRD had repeatedly established the notability of primary and secondary roads (with state and Federal designations), and a good number of articles on non-notable local U.S. roads have been deleted in the last couple of years. If it can be demonstrated that it is more notable than an average side street (and the article amended to reflect it), I could easily change my mind on this. B.Wind (talk) 04:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Changed to Weak Delete - I find it amazing that such a short and inoffensive article has generated such a lengthy discussion. Having read the numerous posts, and after some reflection, I've been more swayed by the deletionists in this instance. Seighean (talk) 04:37, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.