Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lakeland Christian Academy (Winona Lake, Indiana)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Stifle (talk) 14:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Lakeland Christian Academy (Winona Lake, Indiana)

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Non-notable private school, advertising. Woogee (talk) 03:25, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. I would note that schools which are or include high schools, as this one does, are generally considered notable and are rarely deleted in an AfD discussion. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. I removed the speedy on this article (which the nominator added the minute the article was created) and added some references. All high schools are notable. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 03:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions.  Eastmain (talk • contribs)  03:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Indiana-related deletion discussions.  Eastmain (talk • contribs)  03:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. A 30+ year old high school, substantial news coverage found at GNews, no reason here to deviate from the general consensus to keep high school articles per the arguments articulated at WP:HS/N.--Arxiloxos (talk) 03:52, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Where does it say it's a high school? Woogee (talk) 04:09, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * See this article as evidence, for example. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:45, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Arxiloxos, I'm not finding anything at GNews beyond a single, mentioned-in-passing item. Have you conflated it with the several other "Lakeland Christian" schools?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:57, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's important to search the archives, since the main GNews page only covers the last 30 days. I get 94 hits for <"Lakeland Christian Academy"> (including, for example, an article from a Pennsylvania paper noting that this school's team played for a national Christian school soccer title and 73 hits for <"Lakeland Christian" Indiana> (not all of these hits are for the Indiana school, but many are).--Arxiloxos (talk) 07:55, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

If you want to talk about high schools in general, then please take it to WT:ORG. If you want to talk about this school, please provide sources (because notability requires verifiable evidence) about this school, not assertions about what should be done with other high schools. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:57, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - I've seen the "high schools are inherently notable" argument before but as far as I know it's not supported by policy. WP:SCHOOL says the relevant notability guidelines are WP:ORG and WP:N.  WP:ORG just restates the "significant coverage in reliable independent sources" test from WP:N and then goes on to say at WP:CLUB that schools who pass WP:N but only have local coverage should be redirected to the article on the area they service.  If someone knows of policy support for the "inherently notable" argument could they cite it please? (WP:HS/N is an essay, with only one supporting comment on its talk page dating to two years ago, and currently it's specifically contradicted by policies and guidelines as above.) - DustFormsWords (talk) 04:53, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Although high schools are indeed subject to WP:ORG and are not inherently notable (in the same way that, say, populated places are), I've been participating in AfD for almost 5 years and have rarely seen high schools deleted here. They tend to have enough sources existing out there that there isn't much point in nominating them. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:01, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * But generally aren't those sources purely local, justifying a WP:CLUB redirect to the geographical article? - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:08, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If a guideline disagrees with the consensus of the community as shown by AFD outcomes, then the guideline should be revised to reflect reality. Guidelines are supposed to be descriptive rather than proscriptive. We do not have a Legislature or Supreme Court which promulgates official rules the masses must follow for notability. Edison (talk) 16:32, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Guidelines are arrived at through greater discussion and scrutiny than any single AfD; if an AfD disagrees with a guideline there really should be some world-class oratory on display explaining why this is a special exception. Rules usually exist for a good reason and Wikipedia's are in general less arbitrary than most. - DustFormsWords (talk) 22:56, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Please do not introduce a red herring into the discussion by saying "any single AFD." I said "the consensus of the community as shown by AFD outcomes" trumps some guideline. Guidelines often reflect the opinion of a small handful of editors, at some point in time. Edison (talk) 01:51, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * But it's not a single AfD; there are dozens of examples. Take a look at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Schools/archive and the crisp summary thereof at OUTCOMES.  The community has spoken on this point over and over; the wording of the arguments varies a little bit, but the results are consistent. --Arxiloxos (talk) 23:46, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A large number of AFDs with similar outcomes over a long period should overrule some guideline debated over a short period by a few editors. We do not function with some small body empowered to promulgate policies which reflect their values, which the multitude must then follow, at least so far as notability is concerned. Guidelines should be descriptive of the consensus of editors, and a long series of AFDs is one good way for that consensus to be reflected. Edison (talk) 01:47, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Proposed guideline and policy changes are widely advertised via the Wikipedia Signpost, centralised discussions, the Village Pump, and the Admin Noticeboard and can be assumed to accurately reflect community consensus. AfD discussions attract only regular AfD patrollers and those with a vested interest in the subject article.  If you feel AfD practice isn't reflected in the policies and guidelines, go put up a proposal to change the policy or guideline.  If you feel this particular AfD should be an exception to the policy or guideline, make a case relevant to what makes this article exceptional.  But just saying, "Well, we have that policy or guideline but we never actually follow it" isn't hugely convincing, whether or not you have supporting evidence. - DustFormsWords (talk) 01:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What you assert is not always the case. Numerous "proposed guidelines" now languish labelled as "Essay" or "Rejected." Some guidelines reflect the opinion of a few dedicated policy wonks and few others, and do not reflect what the consensus of the community of editors have determined in numerous AFDs over a long period. Large public high schools are notable, per that standard. Small private "high schools" need demonstrated notability by means of significant coverage in multiple reliable and independent sources. Does such coverage exist for this one? Edison (talk) 04:42, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (undent) This really isn't the best place to discuss whether or not Wikipedia's guidelines are right. Fact: every single time anyone has proposed that all high schools should always be kept, the proposal has been shot down.  The community has rejected at least four formal, stand-alone proposals, plus repeated efforts to enshrine this claim at WP:ORG.  Equally true fact:  Most high schools in Canada or the US—and far more middle schools than the highschoolers want to admit—do meet the existing standards at ORG and should be kept.
 * Keep It is a high school, and the common outcome that has developed is that high schools are inherently notable, while primary and middle schools are referred to in the article about the school district. Every now and then, people who never participate in the AfD discussions debate whether high schools should be notable, and, operating in their own little world, they never seem to reach a conclusion.  Even if they did, I'd say, "who cares?" because the consensus has been developed here.  Mandsford (talk) 12:54, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete No evidence of notability beyond being called a private high school. My friends operated a Family High School to home school their 3 children. It would not seem to be a notable high school, and this one similarly is lacking evidence of notability, which a public high school or large private high school would have. Past AFDs would seem to show that public high schools have a presumption of notability, but small private schools not so much. See North Shore Country Day School for an example of a notable private high school. Edison (talk) 01:57, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure this comment accords with the available evidence. This school  certainly does not appear to be a Family High School.  It has been around for 30+ years, it fields teams in multiple sports (there's a page dedicated to the school at usatoday.com), and I get 74 GNews Hits when I search the string <"Lakeland Christian" Indiana>.--Arxiloxos (talk) 02:34, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If by "dedicated page", you mean "page that is completely empty except for routine reporting of the score from games played against other schools", then I'd agree. However, every single high school in the entire US that has a sports team automatically gets one of these pages, so it's not a good indication of notability.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:12, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree with your reasoning here: the fact that every high school gets such a page on a national website is an example of why (as discussed at WP:HS/N) every high school is likely to be notable.--Arxiloxos (talk) 06:14, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Please note that I did not state it was a "Family High School," just a "Private Christian High School" with no stated attendance or evidence of notability. If you find reliable and independent sources with significant coverage, please identify them individually and specifically here, or preferably by adding them as inline references in the article. Edison (talk) 04:36, 15 April 2010 (UTC)


 * This source indicates 26 seniors out of a student body of 163 in grades 7-12 . Per Edison's suggestion, I've gone ahead and added that in.  There are other mentions from the Warsaw, Indiana newspapers about graduation news, although I can't see adding  news stories to the article.  Mandsford (talk) 16:08, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a pretty weak source. It's a paid advertisement (which means that it doesn't count towards notability), and their main source of information is the school itself.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:12, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - contains a high school and there are a number of sources from which the page can be expanded. TerriersFan (talk) 13:35, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.