Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lalla Latifa Hammou


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 03:17, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Lalla Latifa Hammou

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The wife of someone notable - unworthy of her own article - some contentious uncited also in the article - templated uncited since ten months - If someone can assert she really exists and was married to him then I support a deletion and then a protected redirect to stop this article being recreated, if not then delete and salt. I notice the detail about her is in Hassan II article but it is uncited there as far as I can see - anyway this person is not wiki notable and shouldn't have a BLP here. WP:NOTINHERITED - Off2riorob (talk) 22:27, 6 July 2011 (UTC) Off2riorob (talk) 22:27, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  — —Tom Morris (talk) 22:54, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions.  — —Tom Morris (talk) 22:54, 6 July 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems that she really exists and was married to Hassan II. I agree with your suggestion of a protected redirect (to Hassan II). --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 10:49, 7 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:00, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

-->  The (possibly imprisoned?) mother of the current king whose brother attempted to kill King Hasan II is a non-notable...? ...and Iron Man's enemy "Whiplash" isn't? You guys are beyond laughable with all your little codes - it's breathtaking. "Wikipedia is Second Life for Corporations" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.249.45.36 (talk) 17:32, 17 July 2011 (UTC) 
 * Well she certainly exists since her son is the current king of Morocco. Article is worthy of existence in my opinion given that she is a member of the Royal house of Morocco and was "First lady of Morocco" for 39 years. Tachfin (talk) 17:46, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep The immediate family of ruling monarchs are notable.    DGG ( talk ) 03:03, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment A link to the policy, guideline, or essay you are citing would be helpful. Edison (talk) 20:05, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 08:35, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete and redirect - Not sure I agree with DGG that " The immediate family of ruling monarchs are notable" some Kings have scores of children, do all the children warrant WP articles? of course not.   I suggest that immed family members of national leaders are notable only if sources discuss the family member in a significant way (such as Albert, Prince Consort,  Mary Todd Lincoln, etc).    Lalla Latifa Hammou appears to have virtually no mention in Google Books.   The best solution, in my opinion, is to include mention of her in the  Hassan II of Morocco article, where she is already mentioned.  --Noleander (talk) 18:10, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes - I agree with Noleander's comments. Off2riorob (talk) 18:18, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. WP:NOTINHERITED: <>. This is WP rule found here
 * As I said, she was first lady for 39yrs with the title "Mother of the princes" (King Hassan II only had one wife), and that constitutes enough notability in the royal case. If this gets deleted than all first ladies articles should be. With the exception of Hillary Clinton, i don't see any other first ladies worthy of any notability on their own. This is exactly why WP:NOTINHERITED has the exception cited above. Tachfin (talk) 19:48, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It is not accurate to say "With the exception of Hillary Clinton, i don't see any other first ladies worthy of any notability on their own."  Each of the first ladies that have WP articles have hundreds of WP:Reliable sources that discuss them, often there are entire biographical books on them. The point here is that the subject of this article has virtually no mention anywhere in books or other key sources.  No one is suggesting that she be eliminated from the encyclopedia, merely that she be described  in a section in the King's article, and this article redirect to that. --Noleander (talk) 18:40, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete and redirect. Notability is not inherited. Some "royal families" where the rulers have multiple wives are so large that it is doubtful all members satisfy WP:BIO on the basis of multiple instances of significant coverage in reliable and independent sources, especially in small countries, and especially if they are somewhat closed societies. Being a family member of a ruler does not automatically make someone a public official. Not every family member of every ruler travels the world giving speeches and making appearances, or is in the press all the time for other reasons. One cannot automatically equate a wife of some king to a "First Lady" of the US or the spouse or heir of a British monarch as having "a public position that is notable in its own right." (Seems like there should have been some press coverage of Hassan marring "Lalla#1" and "Lalla#2," both in 1961. Was it sort of a double wedding?) Google news archive had only a handful of passing references to her, listing her as the mother of her offspring, not sufficient to support of WP:BIO. Where is coverage of her personally?   Edison (talk) 20:01, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. The subject seems to be more commonly known as just "Lalla Latifa", so these sources should be considered: Phil Bridger (talk) 17:57, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. Lalla Latifa did undertake public duties covered by the press, and is covered on 5 separate pages of this book, with the coverage on pages 77 and 79 appearing (with my basic Spanish) to be substantial. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep as the wife of a head of state she is notable as per both DGG, and Noleander along with the coverage found by Phil Bridger. VER  Tott  08:57, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The notability guidelines don't say - all wives of heads of state are notable. I can't find any mention of such a clause in the notability guidelines? Would you please point me to where it is asserted, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 16:01, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Hassan II per Noleander. I don't see any policy stating that such people are automatically notable, and also note that all of the couple's children have articles; I'd make a pretty good guess that most if not all of these are in a similar position. Black Kite (t) (c) 18:54, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * By that you mean that the article of an active head of state should be deleted too? Good guess indeed Tachfin (talk) 19:38, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Obviously not, hence my use of the word "most". I will however strike the "all" to make it clearer. Black Kite (t) (c) 21:35, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * (@Off2riorob and Black Kite) I moved the discussion on from the claim that such people are automatically notable. How do the sources that I linked not satisfy the general notability guideline? Phil Bridger (talk) 20:13, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I looked at those. Even the newspaper article admitted that she is hardly ever seen in public, whilst I suspect (with my ropey translation skills) that the majority of the book mentions are in terms of her relationship to other people - mainly Hassan and her son. Black Kite (t) (c) 21:35, 30 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Discussion has shifted, best to let it continue. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 14:37, 31 July 2011 (UTC) 08:35, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment It has been consistent practice that immediate family of heads of state and usually heads of government are notable. The attempt to change this consistent practice is inappropriate, for there is always both importance and interest. For an area where sourcing is difficult for us, the extent of sourcing needs to be relaxed, or we will never escape WP:Cultural bias. WP:V is of course necessary, and has been met.    DGG ( talk ) 17:55, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
 * @Phil - the citations you have presented do not assert a requirement that this person warrants their own Wikipedia biography, so my moved to a position of redirect is unaltered - nothing is lost with a redirect - all the detail currently in the article is already in the husbands article - if someone reliably expands the detail there about this wife then a case can easily be made to recreatew a bio under her name - right now from presented evidence here they seem notable in the husbands bio only or a mention in a list. Off2riorob (talk) 18:26, 31 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete without coverage, nothing is notable, and I'm not seeing any coverage, certainly not to the level of WP:GNG. Stuartyeates (talk) 01:00, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. The coverage highlighted by Phil Bridger is likely to get it over the line, in my view. When the "Hammou" is dropped from searches there is a fair bit out there, although admittedly not in a huge amount of depth/ Add to that a reasonable expectation of more coverage in the subject's native language (Arabic) and a separate article is warranted. --Mkativerata (talk) 11:04, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep: Fascinating, I added a few references to the article. Though she has less coverage than a normal spouse of a king might have, she has coverage for being so kept out of the public eye, which has not escaped frequent attention.  There's nothing gained by deleting this article.--Milowent • talkblp-r  18:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * comment - thanks for the improvements. The privacy content is not really about her, more about privacy in general. Anyways, if its kept, which is looking likely at least is sourcing is improved. Off2riorob (talk) 19:05, 1 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.