Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Land of Destiny


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.  MBisanz  talk 03:27, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Land of Destiny

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Although the author has added some sources, which saves this from *speedy* deletion, I don't think any of the cited sources count as reliable for our purposes. This is a MMPORG which just began operations a couple of weeks ago. I don't think it meets WP:WEB. NawlinWiki (talk) 23:36, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree with the proposed-deletion of this article. The game, Land of Destiny, is not a MMPORG, it is a PBBG, also falling-under the categories of MMORPG and MMORTS, it allows gameplay in a "massively multiplayer" environment (currently 1540 play on the same map). The Wikipedia listing of multiplayer browser-based games uses similar submissions which required extensive sourcing to be listed (e.g. Kdice, NukeZone, Ogame, Utopia_(online_game), and Orion%27s_Belt_(game)). I do note the problem of many sources being dependent on the developers. Are the current references considered trivial due to their "brief summary of the nature of the content [of the site]"? While high-profile publications pertaining to Land of Destiny do verify the site's existence, I do not feel that a review on a website commonly associated with retail-reviews (such as Gamespot or PCGamer) would attract the game's target audience, as the more "high profile" the website, the better graphics readers are expecting. Yet a browser-based game is, by definition, a non-retail game which can be played without downloads. Exactly the genre that is considered "insignificant" by MMORPG-standards. This is likely why the game has received coverage and reviews on websites which promote free-to-play games, instead of high-profile websites promoting cutting-edge MMOGs. Diego Bank (talk) 00:46, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Regarding the "newness" of the game, Land of Destiny has been in development since 2007, and Alpha-Testing began in April, 2008. There have been appproximately four rounds of Alpha Test (the more recent at accelerated gamespeeds), and of the last round, I found the gameplay similar (perhaps preferable) to the game's closest relatives - Travian (500,000+ users), Tribal Wars (500,000+ users), Ikariam (size unknown), and Damoria (100,000+ users). I find that the latter three are unlisted on Wikipedia. Perhaps due to their browser-based status? Is there a way to attach this article to the List_of_multiplayer_browser_games article? Diego Bank (talk) 00:46, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't object to an inclusion in the List article, providing that WP:V is still fulfilled (i.e. it is verified by independent, reliable sources), and that at least some indication of importance is shown. With regard to the other games you mentioned, Ikariam has been speedily deleted 8 times (and is now salted) and Tribal Wars was deleted after peer discussion (here if you're interested.) No-one's tried a Damoria article yet. Marasmusine (talk) 14:35, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. MrKIA11 (talk) 03:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - As all the sources provided are either self-published or press releases, this game does not meet the notability threshold for inclusion. Marasmusine (talk) 14:27, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - The game is notable and the sources are adequate for inclusion into Wikipedia. Obviously there are some self published sources, but a few of the others look legit to me.  --Theblog (talk) 06:54, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - Sufficiently well sourced, which addresses notability. Not written in a promotional style, so NPOV is satisfied. A worthwhile addition to the encyclopedia. Orpheus (talk) 09:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - I disagreed about the POV, so I have now made some edits to remove some peacockism. . As far as I can tell, the only non-press release reference is the Galaxy-News interview. Marasmusine (talk) 12:09, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I meant in comparison to other self-written game pages I've seen through AfD (that were usually, quite rightly, deleted). Good edits you've made there, though. Orpheus (talk) 14:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - the only coverage of significance is the intervew on Galaxy-net. There is one minor game summary on mpod, and the rest are all self-published sources.  That's not enough to establish notability. -- Whpq (talk) 17:00, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - reposted press releases are not good sources. - MrOllie (talk) 21:51, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete — another MMORPG/MMORTS/MMOwhatever in which I cannot find any sources to establish notability, just like the other umpteen thousand similar MMOwhatever AFDs that have gone through here. As with those umpteen thousand other said AFDs, Wikipedia is not the place to promote said games, nor is it to be used as your own web host. MuZemike  ( talk ) 01:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - I do not have an educated response to MuZemike. He may or may not be right, but in the past I have found Wikipedia to be a good source for online games, or "keywords" to use for Google-searches. In fact, I often search Google for keywords which I find on Wikipedia. I am concerned with the lack of notability for non-retail games in general. One of the advantages of non-retail games is that there is no real need for "game-reviews" to exist, as readers need not determine whether or not they should make a "purchase". This may be a cause of low notability in general. Thank you for your feedback Marasmusine - it is much appreciated. Reading the Tribal Wars deletion discussions was very helpful for me, as both Tribal Wars and Land of Destiny are in the same genre. I find it hard to believe that the article has been created over 100 times, yet the lack of notability is a similar problem. Right now GalaxyNet is in fact the only website with a full review of Land of Destiny, and I will ask people to review this game on other websites. I want to thank Marasmusine and Wyatt Riot for teaching me what I need for creating an article, and how to construct it in order to avoid Speedy Deletion Wikipedia article (referring me to the style articles). I am moving the hyperlinks to the External Links section, and taking Land of Destiny off of the Massively_multiplayer_online_real-time_strategy_games category until further notice. Thank you for copyediting this article, Marasmusine. Diego Bank (talk) 03:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * My rationale for deletion was based more on how the article has been presented for the encyclopedia (i.e. argument based on what Wikipedia is not which is echoed in the deletion policy) moreso than lack of notability, the latter in which I did not mention, but neither of which I didn't think meet, as I do agree with Whpq above in that Galaxy-net is not considered (at the very least in my view) a reliable source for establishment of notability. As far as how many times the article was recreated, I don't know, but all I know that it was only speedy deleted twice according to the logs. I surely do not call for a speedy delete nor any type of creation protection (salting) for this, as even admins can overlook some things from time to time, as well as the chance that new reliable sources can pop up, suddenly making the article worthy of inclusion here. (Patrolling articles up for speedy deletion cannot be easy, as literally thousands pop up every day.) Finally, thanks for the educated response, albeit indirectly, to my !vote (i.e. "not vote" as what the "!" represents). MuZemike  ( talk ) 07:07, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.