Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lankhmar (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Liz Read! Talk! 05:38, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Lankhmar
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Fictional D&D city with major GNG issues; the article's only claim of notability is that this city has inspired the better-known fictional city of Ankh-Morpork. I don't see any SIGCOV sources in the article or elsewhere (although I could not access Bryce 2008 cited in Further reading; Lovett-Graff 1996 cited there as well mentions the city in passing but does not provide any in-depth analysis. I wouldn't hold much hopes as the source was found in the prior AfD, nobody could access it and that AfD which ended with keep verdict was sadly influenced by claims that I can at best describe as incorrect if not misleading (ex. "Covered in Encyclopedia of Fantasy and Horror Fiction." - false, as can be seen from the entry here). I suggest redirecting to Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser (merge is not necessary, the Ankh-Morpork reference is already there; that article probably should be renamed to the Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser series - I started a discussion at that article's talk about refocusing it, feel free to comment there) or perhaps Lankhmar – City of Adventure. PS. See also related older AfD Articles for deletion/Nehwon. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:43, 23 December 2023 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,   Sandstein   09:06, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy,  and Games. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  08:43, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That's a merge to Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, not a straight redirect. The D&D stuff isn't separately notable but I think it's likely worth preserving.—S Marshall T/C 12:23, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge to Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser (the naming question of the target notwithstanding) following 's opinion, or keep as there are secondary sources which are borderline with regard to establishing notability in my view. As an aside, this is not primarily a D&D city, but rather an important city of fantasy literature also adapted to D&D and other RPGs. This PhD thesis by Schneider already has a number of bits of commentary throughout, e.g. p. 129. It does refer both to the mentioned essay by Bryce 2008, as well as Waugh: The Word and the Wild: The Problem of Civilization in the Works of Fritz Leiber from the same monograph(?). I also cannot access either to see how much there is on Lankhmar. Can anyone else? One relevant question with regard to notability/WP:WHYN here would be if the gods of Lankhmar should be considered a subtopic contributing to the content of our article here or not. Schneider has more commentary on that, as does this paper by Lovett-Graff, which also has a bit of commentary on Lankhmar itself, like Lankhmar being a fantastic reflection of our world. Daranios (talk) 14:58, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment I think a holistic look at how we depict 1) the works of Fritz Lieber, and 2) the game elements that derive from them, is in order. We don't need a bazillion different articles, but nor should the foundational elements only be reflected in the well-marketed game supplements which were based on them. Jclemens (talk) 20:07, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * keep this is a bit tricky because we have an article on the D&D setting, a board game, and lots of other places where this is referenced. Sources like discuss both the setting and the city itself.   is mostly about one of the books set in the city but again covers the city quite a bit.   is an academic paper which dwells on one part of the city in pretty great detail (in fact that writeup makes me realize that Glen Cook's work took the same ideas of in a city).  But yeah, we should certainly keep this.  Just do a google scholar search on the word "Lankhmar".  Once you get past the first few pages of just books by Leiber, you can see the massive trove of papers that reference this fantasy city.  I was shocked.  I seriously think there is a featured article in here with enough work. Hobit (talk) 01:19, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, be sure to read the last AfD. Hobit (talk) 01:20, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Hobit Can you cite (link) to let's say two best examples that would satisfy SIGCOV concerns? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:25, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think all three I linked to were pretty good. The third one spends a fair bit of time on a specific place in the city and also on the nature of the city and it's people.   is a review of a game based in the city, but it has a ton of details about the city including maps.  And while it's no academic paper, it is reliable and independent. I'll go with those two--one academic and covering a small part of the city and it's nature and one a review of a product about the city that goes into deep detail about the city.  Neither is perfect--I'd love to find an academic paper focused on the city itself.  But both are reliable sources that provide significant coverage of the city. And there are at least dozen or so that are also over the WP:N bar. (I linked to two above, check out the article itself and the last AfD for some more).  There are very few fantasy topics that have anywhere near this many academic papers about them... Hobit (talk) 15:49, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep per agreement with the arguments made by Hobit. BOZ (talk) 01:31, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep in light of the above sourcing, with no prejudice against article reorganization as per my earlier comments. Jclemens (talk) 22:55, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep notable plot item (city) covered in series of books, a boardgame dedicated to it, and ttrpg. Has independent sourcing Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:13, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. Not a D&D city at all (the fact is is claimed to be so gives me suspicion that the nominator probably needs to do a bit of WP:BEFORE). The central setting of the extremely significant writings of an extremely significant fantasy writer. Plenty written about it. Clearly notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:13, 4 January 2024 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.