Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Largest prehistoric organisms


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Jayjg (talk) 05:14, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Largest prehistoric organisms

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Any interesting content on this page should be in Largest_organisms, since in cases where the largest organism in a category is extant, the largest prehistoric one will pretty much always just be a recently extinct close relative. This page feels like a fork of Largest_organisms, anyway. Nothing seems to link to this article, and some of the content is just wrong. ErikHaugen (talk) 22:23, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep: Differs considerably from Largest organisms on which many categories default to the largest living example, whereas the nom'd article abandons this restriction. Definitely needs better referencing, but it's a good start. Grey Wyvern ⚒  23:04, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Largest organisms can, and in many cases does, mention the extinct taxa if the extant one is not the largest in the category. IOW, there is no such restriction. Are any animals in Largest prehistoric organisms larger than _any_ mentioned in Largest organisms? If so, let's put them in Largest organisms! Moreover, in cases where the largest *is* extant, picking some other large prehistoric taxa for Largest prehistoric organisms is just silly - eg, Basilosaurus is listed as the largest prehistoric whale, although it is of course not the largest prehistoric whale. The largest would just be some recently extinct baleen whale that is arbitrarily closely related to blue whales, and it isn't interesting to say this in addition to what is already in Largest organisms - this is going to be true for every case where the largest in the category is extant. I could just fix this by removing basilosaurus et all, but if I kept doing that I'd just be left with a page that is trivially different from Largest organisms, with all the obvious problems of two nearly identical pages. ErikHaugen (talk) 23:42, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * That largest organisms mentions extinct taxa doesn't make LPO a POV fork. While there is mention of extinct taxa in largest organisms, a good solution would be to rework LO to cover modern taxa only and have LPO cover the fossil taxa.  Regarding the Basilosaurus argument, its a strawman at best.  Currently it IS the largest prehistoric cetacean.  IF fossils are described that are bigger then the article can be updated to reflect the change.  Arguing for possibilities does not work. there are a number of cases where the modern taxa are much smaller then the extinct relatives see monotremes and many insect orders.--Kevmin (talk) 00:24, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * "POV fork"? What do you mean? "Currently it (Basilosaurus) IS the largest" But it isn't. There is no doubt _at all_ that there where cetaceans living in prehistoric times that were far larger than Basilosaurus. And this will be 100% true for all cases where the largest in a category is extant - unless we have witnessed the evolution to record sizes in historic times? Maybe largest cat - liger? :) Perhaps the intent here was to list, for each category, the completely extinct genus that contains the largest specimen that does not belong to an extant genus? (Or family instead of genus?) But this is hard to define and in any case is going to be totally arbitrary (should it be family? genus? these ranks are arbitrary to begin with!) - this is the heart of my complaint about this page; this is not both a well defined and meaningful list. ErikHaugen (talk) 01:24, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * And until you suggested extinct blue whale relative is found, studied, and published, it is as reasonable as saying invisible pink unicorns run wikipedia. There is every possibility those species/genrea will NEVER be found, thus complaining because the page accurately states that the currently know largest Cetacean is Basilosaurus (note species/genus names are written with italics), is an appeal to the unknown.  It is also very possible that the expansion in size was until after the last iceage, thus fitting into your definition of record size growth in modern history.  that the The list as defined by the use of the term prehistoric is for taxa which existed prior to modern times,  read fossil in most cases.  Yes the scope is vague right now, but it is much easier to define that scope given the title then to nuke it completely. --Kevmin (talk) 01:45, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * "It is also very possible that the expansion in size was until after the last iceage" - No, no I don't think this is possible :) I don't think blue whales grew 2x longer and 10-20x heavier in a couple thousand years! "it is much easier to define that scope" - Can you do it? I can't imagine how to make this list a well defined and still an interesting one. I really can't. If I could, I would be working on the page rather than here. The concept might have sounded interesting at first, but it just isn't a valid one. ErikHaugen (talk) 02:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not certain how defining the scope is not easy, the title has already done it: Prehistoric. Thus extinctions by man are out, leaving organisms the existed but are extinct now, known from only subfossil to fossil remains.  Largest organisms now extinct due to humans should be coevered in largest organisms. Ill not address the Basilosaurus issue here, as it is the wrong place, bring it up at Basilosaurus or a similar page and we can discuss there.--Kevmin (talk) 22:01, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * You're missing my point - the largest prehistoric organisms are the largest organisms around today, since no organism became significantly larger since prehistoric times. (Can you think of an example? Maybe some animal that was bred to be larger?) I _think_ the intent of this page is probably something along the lines of "the extinct genus/family in a given category with the largest species" or something - but this is very vague and arbitrary. Can you nail this down to make it an interesting distinction? This discussion should not be moved to Basilosaurus, because it really doesn't have anything to do with Basilosaurus - the point of discussing Basilosaurus here is because this is an example of how an attempt to make a list of largest prehistoric organisms that is distinct from Largest organisms is futile. ErikHaugen (talk) 04:39, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * "there are a number of cases where the modern taxa are much smaller" - again, as I have said many times, these can be/are in Largest organisms. You know, because they're the largest. We already have a page that says "The largest extant monotreme is the Western Long-beaked Echidna weighing up to 16.5 kg (36.4 lb) and measuring 1 m (3.3 ft) long.[10] The largest monotreme (egg-bearing mammal) ever was the extinct echidna species Zaglossus hacketti, known only from a few bones found in Western Australia. It was the size of a sheep, weighing probably up to 100 kg (220 lb)." Why do we also need one that says: "The largest monotreme (egg-laying) mammal ever was the extinct long-beaked echidna species Zaglossus hacketti, known from a couple of bones found in Western Australia. It was the size of a sheep, weighing probably up to 100 kg (220 lb)." duplicated content is suboptimal. ErikHaugen (talk) 01:24, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * As I already suggested, define Largest organisms to cover modern taxa (living or extinct within modern times), and move the extinct(prehistoric/fossil) taxa information to this page, simple and no duplication. --Kevmin (talk) 01:45, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * But that would be a radical change. Largest Organisms should contain a list of the largest organisms. This is why it is called "Largest organisms", and that is what it is. Additionally, your plan would mean there is no page that lists the largest organisms, which I think is pretty clearly more interesting, and well defined, than either of the pages you suggest. ErikHaugen (talk) 02:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep: per GreyWyvern. -- Spotty  11222 00:15, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep This article has a different much more limited scope then Largest oragnisms.  I will agree completly that there need to be major improvements to referencing.--Kevmin (talk) 00:24, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep: When I wrote the article I was only 5 months old (in Wiki years), so it diffidently requires a cleanup and references, but if all the content were moved to Largest organisms, it would not be nearly as detailed. --The High Fin Sperm Whale (talk) 00:29, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Let's make it more detailed then! ErikHaugen (talk) 01:24, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * But Largest organisms is already too long and is marked for splitting. It does not need more text.--The High Fin Sperm Whale (talk) 19:49, 9 November 2009 (UTC)


 * If this is really necessary, I would suggest a more useful split - say along major taxonomic categories (vertebrates, etc). In any case Largest organisms tries to list prehistoric taxa where appropriate - as the name Largest organisms suggests - so that page should be totally reworked/renamed if you want to keep LPO. ErikHaugen (talk) 20:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment there are fungal colonies and cloned tree groves, very large, which may date back before human history. they should be included as well. i support adding any unique content here to largest organisms. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 02:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Fungal and clonal colonies are actually already in the largest organisms article.--Kevmin (talk) 02:56, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I would also like to note that Largest Organisms has been tagged to be split into smaller articles since June of this year, so adding content to the page seems like setting the stage for just splitting it out again if someone gets around to breaking out material into smaller articles.--Kevmin (talk) 05:21, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Largest organisms is already a 94 KB article, so I see no advantage in adding a section on largest extinct organisms. I note that the nominator has pointed out at least one inaccuracy that should be corrected, and it's good to have input from someone knowledgable on the subject.  Mandsford (talk) 02:50, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It already contains this information where appropriate; it isn't in its own section. The inaccuracy can't be fixed without making this page just like Largest organisms, as far as I can tell. ErikHaugen (talk) 18:28, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I understand. However, since it doesn't look like this article will be deleted, then whatever inaccuracies may exist can be pointed out, even if someone else makes the corrections.  It's been brought up that the article "says the largest extinct whale was basilosaurus, but obviously some recently extinct baleen whales are going to be a whole lot bigger than basilosaurus was", so that's at least one section to fix.  On the other hand, the only stat I can find so far on an extinct baleen whale is for Eobalaenoptera harrisoni, which left an 11 meter long skeleton, while the source for Basilosaurus refers to something larger; Anyway, it's something for people to look for.  Mandsford (talk) 19:37, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * There isn't actually any inconsistency in the article at this point. The Basilosaurus/blue whale discussion is referring to hypothetical predecessors of the modern blue whale which would have been larger then Basilosaurus. However those predecessors have not been found/described yet, and as such any changes based on them is nothing but crystalballing. If/when they are described then and only then should the article be updated. --Kevmin (talk) 20:23, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * But blue whales were around in prehistoric times, and they were just as big as they are now. This isn't "crystalballing". Every category on this page where extant animals are largest suffers from this problem. No crystal balls needed. ErikHaugen (talk) 16:50, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Please provider a reliable, verifiable, peer reviewed, citations to the taxonomic descriptions of these species. Without these citations you are crystalballing.--Kevmin (talk) 17:35, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * What, for blue whale? Blue whale seems pretty well documented? Or are you saying that it's controversial that blue whales were the same size a few thousand years ago? I'm missing your point, or you're missing mine. ErikHaugen (talk) 18:45, 9 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I think I'm understanding Erik's point, or at least one main point, now. He's right.  We tend to think of "prehistoric = dinosaurs", but strictly speaking, prehistoric times ended only a few thousand years ago, and blue whales, rather than basilosaurus, are the largest "prehistoric organisms" as well as the largest modern day organisms.   It would be more accurate to call this Largest extinct organisms.  We can argue over the definition of prehistoric, but extinct isn't really ambiguous.  Mandsford (talk) 21:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * unfortunatly extinct ataully takes in more organisms then prehistoric. Golden toad, Dodo, Steller's Sea Cow and Baiji all are extinct but not prehistoric. --Kevmin (talk) 21:38, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless those are examples of "largest" toad, bird, dolphin, etc., I'm not sure how that would apply. Mandsford (talk) 00:17, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Dodos were the largest of the pigeon order (Columbiformes) to have lived. Moas and elephant birds were the largest birds to have lived.  The Steller's Sea Cow was the largest sirenian to have lived.  All were extirpated due to human activity in modern times. --Kevmin (talk) 00:26, 10 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep A fine article on a notable topic; disagree with arguments for merging; no good reason given for deletion. Gandalf61 (talk) 13:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)


 * "Largest prehistoric organisms" currently lists organisms known from specific fossils, rather than organisms that we can reasonably infer existed based on extant creatures. Undiscovered extinct rorquals surely grew larger than fossil whales, but wouldn't be something that we could list in a separate article.  In any case, I've now edited the article to cite references that describe fossil whales bigger than Basilosaurus.
 * Regardless of what happens to "Largest prehistoric organisms", I oppose restricting the "Largest organisms" article to extant organisms only. I think it's a mistake to consistently confine fossil creatures to the ghetto of a separate article, because it implies that prehistoric life is an aberration from extant life, while in fact the present is just a moment in an unfolding story.  Each group should be understood as having a long evolutionary history, and a range of body sizes that vary throughout that history.
 * Nevertheless, a separate article about the largest fossil organisms can be useful, especially when the largest extinct representative of a group is smaller than the largest extant representative, because it tells us something about the development of the group.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.