Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Laura Chukanov


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Miss Utah USA. Black Kite (talk) 11:48, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Laura Chukanov

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This took a bit more to think through, since there was coverage from Sofia, Bulgaria. Still that just amounts to "local girl does well in a pageant somewhere else" that we see in lots of coverage of Miss USA state contestant winners. The coverage all focuses on Chukanov's win as Miss Utah USA and nothing in the coverage rises to the level to pass over more than one event and move this into the level of coverage that passes GNG. John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:40, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2016 October 22.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 16:57, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Utah-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 03:26, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Beauty pageants-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 03:26, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions.  SST  flyer  12:20, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 01:24, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Redirect to Miss Utah USA or  Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations Delete (See comment below for reasoning): This subject does not deserve a stand-alone article. I was thinking "International coverage" is a good thing when I looked at this. The reference from Bulgaria states Sofia-born Laura Chukanov places fourth in Miss USA competition, and "places fourth" caught my attention. The next reference ("Cover Story: Utah 2008") returned Epic 404 - Article Not Found. The third reference ("Cover Story: Miss Utah USA 2009 vies for Miss USA while juggling homework and philanthropy.") returned This site can’t be reached. A search brought up a recent NY Times article concerning allegations against Donald Trump, when he got her to wear a bikini, and exploring how bad he treated women. I was getting into this when I read "her introduction to Mr. Trump at Mar-a-Lago was the start of a whirlwind romance". Crap, they had a fling "AFTER the fact". There are some current references about this bikini exploitation, then --- she came to his rescue and said she was misquoted. Now I am having to look farther into this. What I see are other news reports about the "allegations", including what the subject said was the New York Times "hit piece" on Trump. She won Miss USA 2009, which is not enough to satisfy WP:notability. The subject does have a place on the Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations article, and would certainly add some balance, and is already listed on the Miss Utah USA article. Otr500 (talk) 11:11, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment Are we going to delete all the other state representatives too are we punishing this girl for being connected to a political candidate we non-neutrally dislike? GuzzyG (talk) 12:40, 2 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Miss Utah USA; due to the connection to the Trump scandal, it's a possible search term. Would rather not see it redirected to Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations, as off topic, since the subject has not made any allegations. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:33, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment Only 10 of the 51 winners of Miss USA state titles in 2009 currently have articles. Of these one was Miss Universe Bahamas and one Miss Universe Ghana both in 2011. Another 2 were contestants in reality shows, I am not sure if in either case it really was enough to make them notable. There are probably 3 others who are not notable, although I have not completed all background checks yet to consider that issue.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:53, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment These two paragraphs "After competing in the 2009 Miss USA pageant, Laura Kirilova Chukanov, a Bulgarian immigrant who lived in Utah, met with Mr. Trump in his New York office and explained that she wanted to make a documentary about her home country. Mr. Trump encouraged the project and followed through on a promise to put her in touch with his production company. “He genuinely wanted to know what I wanted to do with my life and how he could help,” Ms. Chukanov said." seem to be what the New York Times quoted, repeated in the largely similar Seattle Times article. The Salt Lake Tribune ran the following about Chukanov '' Laura Chukanov was quoted in the same New York Times story in which Taggart became one of a dozen women to allege Trump touched her inappropriately.

Like Taggart, Chukanov was invited to meet with Trump in New York City after finishing third runner-up at the 2009 Miss USA pageant. But Chukanov found him encouraging and well-intentioned, The Times reported in May.

Whereas Taggart told CNN's Erin Burnett that Trump kissed her twice on the mouth — including a kiss inside Trump Tower that "felt like a little bit more to me" — Chukanov told The Tribune that the eventual Republican presidential candidate kissed her on the cheek. As a Bulgarian immigrant, it struck Chukanov as a casual, European greeting. Nothing amorous.

That aside, "everything with his campaign I've found disgusting and appalling," Chukanov said last week by phone from New York, where she works as an account executive.

Chukanov said she was revolted by the vulgar sexual comments that Trump made to "Access Hollywood" anchor Billy Bush in 2005, which Trump has labeled "locker room talk" and said does not reflect his conduct.

"I don't think that is OK at any point in a grown man's life or any person's life, especially one that is running for president and wants to be taken seriously," Chukanov said.'' so she seems to reject Trump but not accuse him of anything, although there are lots of points to consider, the main one here I guess is that she is used as a source.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:12, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment I still think this article should be deleted. A big problem with the coverage, especially from the Salt Lake Tribune, is that Chukanov is not the subject. The subject is perceptions of Donald Trump. I also have to admit that I find the contrasting Chukanov's description of a kiss on the cheek to Taggart's claims of being kissed on the lips as highly odd. It almost seems to be written to question Taggart's claims even though such makes no sense, since the claim that Trump will kiss some women on the lips uninvited does not hinge on his willingness to kiss every women in such a manner.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:18, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment No policy basis for a deletion has been presented here, and since AfD is "Articles for Deletion", the proper closure of this AfD was a speedy keep WP:NPASR or wrong venue as soon as the nomination was posted.  Unscintillating (talk) 14:06, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Perfectly good article.  That international attention to the topic and coverage in multiple reliable sources show that the topic is not a hoax, is not disputed.  Continuing coverage in 2016 regarding Trump shows what should be general knowledge, that the world at large considers the title of Miss Utah USA, in association with titleholders, to be a matter of enduring relevance, no matter why else the titleholder attracts attention.  If editors are determined to assert that the topic is not notable, the conversation should be taken to the proper forum, which AfD is not, as this is a matter for the people who want to do the work of the merger.  Unscintillating (talk) 14:06, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Comments: I changed my mind on the Trump angle (and my !vote). Laura didn't make any accusations, it was just a NY times spin against Trump, so Lambert's assessment is "spot on". Without that this subject does fail notability. WP:BIO states, "For people, the person who is the topic of a biographical article should be "worthy of notice" or "note" – that is, "remarkable" or "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded"...", and there is absolutely nothing along those lines. There simply is not enough reliable sources even by stretching the imagination and my assessment on the references is accurate. This reference is titled "Utah 2008" with the subcaption: "Congratulations to Miss Utah USA 2008 Julia Maria Bachison. She was a semifinalist at the 2008 Miss USA pageant.". In the forth paragraph there is "The first runner up was Jamie Crandall, second runner up was Monica Richards, third runner up was Laura Chukanow, and fourth runner up was Margot Nebeker.". The only way to read this reference is to continually refresh the page because "WayBackMachine keeps plastering a notification (Wayback Machine doesn't have that page archived) over it, and it is titled Cover Story: Miss Utah USA 2009 vies for Miss USA while juggling homework and philanthropy.. The Salt Lake Tribune article is about comments concerning Trump and the Sofia article is about her placing 4th in Miss USA. Assertions that this is a "Perfectly good article" is mind blowing. Because there is a reference does not make notability, no matter where it is from, especially when she placed 4th. The assertion that there is "No policy basis for a deletion", given the clear lack of notability, is astounding. It is not in the lead and lightly mentioned in the body of the article with no reference "She competed the following year and won the title.",  and I had to read in the external links (The first publication of Laura Chukanov) "Until the end of 2008, when we got acquainted with the girl who had just won the title of Miss Utah USA." to even actually verify she won a state title. Upon reexamination, a lack of notability with just the one state win, and references used as place-markers just attempting to show there are some, leaves me no alternative but to !vote delete. Otr500 (talk) 12:38, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Nomination stated that this was a one event, which means that this is a merge discussion not a deletion discussion. Unscintillating (talk) 14:43, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * WP:N states, emphasis in original, "Determining notability does not necessarily depend on things such as fame, importance, or popularity..." As per WP:ARTN, Wikipedia notability is defined outside of Wikipedia.  Unscintillating (talk) 14:43, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The use of hyperbole with words such as "absolutely", "mindblowing", "astounding", and "no alternative" does not strengthen the argument. The opinion that a reliable source, as reported in the article, should be ignored where it gives attention to this topic, is the personal opinion of a Wikipedia editor.  Wikipedia notability is not defined by the personal opinion of Wikipedia editors. Unscintillating (talk) 14:43, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Reply: I can type any way I like just as you can wikilawyer any way you like. You support everything in the world having an article on Wikipedia and there are others that just do not agree and support policies and guidelines giving at least a minimum standard of criteria. You stated "No policy basis for a deletion" and advance some reasoning that this article is somehow exempt from AFD.


 * My "personal opinion" is backed by facts and policies and guidelines whereas you support that a a state win is far and above notable, even if there are only primary sources, and a Miss Diaper USA win along with a state win is an exemption to WP:BIO1E. It appears you feel very strongly, with no actual policies, guidelines, or even essays, that the number of references matter more than the quality. You offered that multiple reliable sources show that the topic is not a hoax, is not disputed. While these are your opinions others do not agree. I went over every reference as evidenced from my comments, and I do not get paid for this, nor do I have any "goal" other than a good encyclopedia. You support that a state title holder is "enduring relevance" and yet there are one line career stubs from 2009 that still have only primary sources or none at all. To you, stating "Perfectly good article" is not "hyperbole". You just want others to "go away" and leave these non-compliant articles alone. Certainly if "you" were among those who want to do the work of the merger, you would read a book on how to get along with others and maybe one on collaboration. No amount of wishing will make a reference about a 4th place win even remotely relevant towards notability, international or not. There is no mandate anywhere that any article can not be deleted by consensus as the options at AFD are "delete", "redirect" or "merge". Have a nice day. Otr500 (talk) 00:05, 14 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.