Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Laurent Ziliani


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  12:58, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Laurent Ziliani

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Fails WP:COMPOSER. No online RS available (only his own sites). PROD was contested. czar  &middot;   &middot;  15:56, 29 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete. The sources are all either primary, or bare mentions of the subject such as soundtrack credits. I couldn't find anything better online.--Atlan (talk) 22:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep. His page on ASCAP and his credit on Resident Evil 6 are genuine and notable. Keep, or possibly merge with Pear Up Media 80.82.70.32 (talk) 03:50, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Notability is not inherited, so merely being part of the game's team does not make team members notable. Otherwise, we would have articles for all the programmers, designers, artists, etc. As a common example, even a game company that makes a game is not by default notable just because their game is. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * even a game company that makes a game is not by default notable just because their game is: I am sorry, not a fair argument. If a new company releases a huge game of the scale of Resident Evil 6, an article will be immediately and legitimately created about the company behind it. --Aaton77 (talk) 21:43, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "Product and company" are a typical WP:NOTINHERITED case. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 22:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep. He is a member of the SCL where his name appear with other notable composers . The link indicated as "reference 9" is taken from his webpage, but he is featured in the French magazine Écran Fantastique, which is apparently a reference when it comes to sci-fi in France. Finally, he appears to work with Thomas Parisch, so I think if we keep that article we should keep this one, too. Tarokoike (talk) 06:28, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * SCL is basically an entry in a list/directory, and that does not by itself make a person notable (unless there is consensus that membership at a certain group/list establishes notability). Re Thomas Parisch -- see common argument of "other articles exist". We do not judge an article's notability based on what other articles we have or do not, because we recognise they may not have been assessed/deleted/created yet. The magazine is an acceptable source though. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Re:SCL, I agree that a membership with SCL does not make someone famous, you have a valid point. But the rest of your argument is untrue: SCL is a society based on membership rather than a simple list. Re: Thomas Parisch, I understand your point, but I guess the argument there was that they both work together, so you cannot really consider it any other article, therefore it is not a simple case of "other articles exist". --Aaton77 (talk) 21:43, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Working together is the same WP:NOTINHERITED case. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 22:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep, simply because he meets WP:COMPOSER: "Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition", as co-composing the soundtrack of Resident Evil 6, which is notable enough. A valid reference would be the end credits roll of that game. If you absolutely need a link, it can be found for instance in this video from minute 07:07 . --Aaton77 (talk) 07:00, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Resident Evil 6 is a video game, not a composition, to which WP:COMPOSER refers. The songs themselves are not notable. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This is not a valid argument. Most video games and movies do not have songs or notable compositions per se, but the background music is still considered notable, as a key element of the game or the movie. It is in fact the case of almost every film score. Therefore, WP:COMPOSER met.--Aaton77 (talk) 21:43, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Not correct; see what WP:NOTABLE actually means in Wikipedia's terms; music by Ziliani from RE6 (or whole score of RE6 combined) are not notable on their own unless you can show otherwise via GNG. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 22:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete. Does not meet WP:GNG -- no multiple reliable independent broad coverage sources on the subject. Écran Fantastique magazine article appears to be a suitable source for WP:GNG, however it is just one for now. All other sources given are primary or lack any depth of coverage (i.e credits). — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 14:51, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The Écran Fantastique article is a first-person Q&A interview. It may establish that he was worth interviewing, but it doesn't add fact-checking: it is a primary source of very low reliability. The fact that it is put forward in his website's "Press Book" page does nothing to improve that reliability, though it does establish that he is aware that Écran Fantastique published the piece. LeadSongDog come howl!  20:07, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep The music for RE6 is most certainly a composition. The video game is merely what the music was composed for, same as a movie, opera, play, etc.  Whether RE6's music by itself is notable is another question, but the video game certainly is.  Background music is now an integral part of both movies and video games, and since the Academy Awards has had an entire section on score since 1934, it doesn't seem much of a stretch, especially now that video games have evolved to the point where famous actors are hired for their voices and video games have almost as many sound credits as movies.   Th e S te ve   21:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you show how RE6's music is notable on its own by providing us with WP:GNG suitable sources to establish its notability? If so, we can satisfy WP:COMPOSER#1; otherwise your argument does not address topic's notability at all. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 22:56, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Discography_of_the_Resident_Evil_video_game_series?--Aaton77 (talk) 23:48, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that's not convincing. Ziliani composed the discography of the Resident Evil series? I don't even see his name mentioned in the article. That article is simply a WP:SPLIT due to size. Every individual soundtrack got merged from AfD (1 2 3 4 5 6 etc.) — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 08:56, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * ?? I never wrote he "composed the discography" of the Resident Evil series. You asked if RE6 music was notable, and I proposed a link to answer your question. I don't quite follow you.--Aaton77 (talk) 09:16, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I assumed because notability of discography is only relevant with WP:COMPOSER#1. There are no other places (that I know of) in the notability guidelines that link the work and author like that. In fact, WP:NOTINHERITED does the opposite. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 10:08, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * So according to this source the soundtrack will be released on November 14th — which would explain why his name is not in the Wikipedia article you just mentioned — yet. I suggest we wait until the release of the album on November 14th or so to determine so you can have the additional information that you demand. No doubt that there should be more info then, such as booklet, etc. As for notability, I found RE6 soundtracks sold on many websites including Amazon and are the subject of many many web results.Tarokoike (talk) 12:19, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Regardless, no one has yet shown how the Ziliani's soundtrack or the composer pass WP:GNG, which is the actual criteria. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 12:48, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It may be miscommunication or misinterpretation of the rules from either side, the notability of RE6 soundtrack was easy to establish to me. Anyway, I think we are going in circles. @Hellknowz you have been heavily weighing in in this discussion. It is obvious you feel strongly against this, making a point to have the last word on every topic. You made your point clear. Now let's leave it for the administrator to decide. :) --19:28, 31 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaton77 (talk • contribs)
 * If it was easy to establish, please cite the sources that you found convincing so that others may be similarly convinced. All I'm finding are routine tabular directory listings and various versions of his bioblurb. LeadSongDog come howl!  19:53, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Right. But which are we talking about now? Notability of RE6 soundtrack or notable involvement of this composer in that soundtrack?207.233.120.5 (talk) 20:00, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This page is Articles for deletion/Laurent Ziliani. LeadSongDog come howl!  20:09, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this dry answer, but if you actually take the time to read the top of this thread you will see Can you show how RE6's music is notable on its own. That's why I asked. So please before dismissing my question at least please assume I have a point.207.233.120.5 (talk) 20:19, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, RE6 2012 soundtrack (where Ziliani was one of the 7 composers). So I asked for WP:GNG on that so we could apply WP:COMPOSER#1. Not the discography, as previous soundtracks are not notable on their own (I linked the AfDs). — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:32, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that the AfDs you mentioned resulted in a merge, not a deletion. Do you mean that, on their own, the soundtracks are not notable, but they would be, taken collectively, as a whole series?--Aaton77 (talk) 00:45, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Most likely. I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of them could be notable on their won (though a series article is still more readable). — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 07:59, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 18:46, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 18:46, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game-related deletion discussions . — Frankie (talk) 18:47, 31 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - In general, there is a lack of significant coverage to establish notability. With respect to notability as a composer, he may be the composer of various music associated with RE6, but unless one can establish that as a notable composition, then criterion 1 is not met in WP:COMPOSER which seems to be the keep argument that is being pushed. -- Whpq (talk) 19:04, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep - If not composer, Ziliani certainly satisfies Category:Video_game_composers. With his credit on Resident Evil 6, which is genuine, he qualifies for that just as e.g. Akihiko Narita who is a video game composer and whose credits are soundtracks to video games each of which is equally or less notable than RE6. Egonhirsch (talk) 04:01, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Category:Video game composers is not a notability guideline. LK (talk) 04:53, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Granted, but then what is the notability of a video game composer, apart from composing the music for a video game?--Aaton77 (talk) 06:31, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Strong Delete Composing highly notable music makes a composer notable. If Ziliani's music is the subject of reviews and commentary in multiple reliable sources, that might make him notable. Composing music for a notable game does not make the composer notable. Not everyone who contributes to a notable work is notable. Notability is not inherited. To give an extreme example, is an artist who laid the tiles for a small mural in the Kuala Lumpur Twin Towers, notable solely because of that work? LK (talk) 04:53, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The answer of your specific example is most certainly no. But your example in no way applies to this. In the case of Resident Evil, (like it is the case of many major Japanese video games), every soundtrack is released independently, as a separate album, in this case with Sony music ). This is not at all the case of a small mural found only at a specific location. There would not be any such release if the music was not notable.--Aaton77 (talk) 06:31, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment' - Notability] as used on Wikipedia has a very specific meaning rather than the more general dictionary meaning. In the Wikipedia sense, what we are looking at is "inclusion criteria".  So a work simply having been released is not notable in and of itself. -- Whpq (talk) 10:16, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I seem to remember that 'having an album released on a major or well known independant label was one of the criteria for notability. Did that change? If the OST is being released on Sony and has Zilani's music one it, that would surely qualify. Though through all this I've been wondering -- just how much music did he compose for the game anyway? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 13:29, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * That criterion is from WP:BAND and does not apply to composers. -- Whpq (talk) 13:44, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The article says "90 minutes", for what it's worth. I have no idea if its true, how much of it may have just been ambience, etc. Sergecross73   msg me   14:37, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * He is one of the 7 composers for the 150-song a bit over 10 hours soundtrack, having composed around 1.5 hours. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 17:52, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Where did you get those figures?--98.148.14.77 (talk) 23:17, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 08:23, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I am sorry, but 10 hours in 4 CD's just doesn't make sense, it's not technically possible. That figure of 10 hours is not reliable, it comes from some guy on a forum who has ripped the music directly from the game. The RE5 soundtrack was about 165 min long on 3 CD. If this one is 4 CDs, I would expect somewhere around 200-220 min.--98.148.14.77 (talk) 08:38, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You are right, the soundtrack release does not include all the game's music, including ambiance, intro, outros and all the miscellaneous cues. I got that torrent though and the total game's music does add up to 10+ hours. I have no way of telling which is composed by Ziliani though and how much of his material is included in the soundtrack's release version. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 09:43, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Torrent? >:( Is that legal? ;) --Aaton77 (talk) 10:51, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * In any case, the release of the CD on Nov 14 (as noted above) will probably tell who composed what and in what amount.--Aaton77 (talk) 10:52, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually it IS possible for game music, depending on how the '10 hour' figure is calculated. If '10 hours' referrers to two loops of everything, and there's very few tracks with no looping, then when changed to one loop it can easily get down close to the five+ hours than can easily fit on 4 CDs. But that's just speculation, and pretty off topic for this page... ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 13:41, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete - Now, if someone could show that he meets the WP:GNG, I'd probably revise my stance, but as it is right now, I'm not sure COMPOSER was meant to be applied in situations like this. WP:COMPOSER seems more applicable to notability when the music is the only, or main, area of focus. (Albums, Musicals, etc.) However, this is not the case with video games, where, unless we're talking about Guitar Hero or something, is not the major focus of the work. Again, if it can be shown that there's good plenty of third party coverage in reliable sources, then that would trump any delete argument, but if the only rationale to "Keep" is WP:COMPOSER, then I'd say delete. Sergecross73   msg me   14:45, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. WP:COMPOSER is a subset of notability guidelines for composers and is not meant to supercede WP:GNG, but to supplement it. Several voters here, in particular the single purpose accounts, seem to be under the impression that simply passing WP:COMPOSER is enough to satisfy WP:N. In my opinion, the subject doesn't have significant coverage in reliable, independent sources.--Atlan (talk) 15:51, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Neutral:It seems to have enough references,but seems to short for anyone to finish,but I would know.maybe keep or maybe delete.~Tailsman67~ 98.71.52.245 (talk) 15:35, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * What is "seems too short for anyone to finish" supposed to mean? I don't understand conceptually, or how that would factor for or against deletion... Sergecross73   msg me   16:24, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete as lacking independent references with in depth coverage OR merge and redriect to a passing mention in Resident Evil 6. Stuartyeates (talk) 08:57, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.