Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Laurentian Society


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   Keep. Fram (talk) 10:47, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Laurentian Society

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A student society at a university that makes no claims to notability. In general university societies are not notable for inclusion, and this article makes no claims that would seem it is notable enough. All references are from internal university sources, not outside third parties. No claims of large membership, famous members or it's involvement in activities outside of the university. Canterbury Tail  talk  00:21, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:ORG, student group at a single school. You know an article is in deep shit when the only references are to the school website and the school newspaper. Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  00:42, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Maintain This article does not only quote internal references from school publications. In this regard, see the note referring to "Finola Kennedy, Frank Duff. A Life Story, Continuum, Burns & Oats, p. 191."  The notability of this society is also historical, since it was created by Catholics at a time in which Catholics were prevented by their authorities from studying at this Protestant university.  Thus, it has a paramount importance considering the cultural/religious history of Ireland.  In this regard, the controversy generated with Archbishop McQuaid, who was at the time almost as important as the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) is also of a paramount historical importance. Elchupaya 13 February 2012.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elchupaya (talk • contribs) 12:47, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Maintain The Laurentian Society is recognised under the Central Societies Committee, but is entirely independent of Trinity News, which is recognised under the Publications Committee. Both the Central Societies Committee and the Publications Committee are independent capitated bodies. Trinity News can therefore be considered a secondary source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ContardoFerrini (talk • contribs) 00:44, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * (Comment - This user has only ever edited the Laurentian Society article.)
 * Still a university publication about a society within the university, not a true third party source. As a result they cannot be considered truly independent. Canterbury Tail   talk  02:19, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what the difference is between "independent" and "truly independent", but I'd say that the source is sufficiently independent. --Lambiam 14:51, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions.  —Tom Morris (talk) 15:10, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:06, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 20:06, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * New External References I just added more references. The references show two external books referring to the society, and an article referring to the complex historical relation between Catholics and Trinity College.  Two new sources is quite a bit in only one day.  You must take into account that this article is quite recent, and that it is difficult to find time to do a thorough research on the matter (I haven't had time to go to research the newspaper articles of the time).  Nevertheless, the historical importance of this society for the modification of the Church's attitude towards Trinity, and in the Protestant-Catholic is very significant.  Perhaps it was a problem to create this article before I had all the sources, but I am a new Wikipedia contributor, so I didn't know it was so strict. Elchupaya (talk • contribs) 14 February 2012  —Preceding undated comment added 10:33, 14 February 2012 (UTC).
 * Can you paraphrase or quote how the society is mentioned in the books you've referenced? Just curious as you mention in the article that it is explicitly mentioned, but not why or how. A mention isn't necessarily a reference, such as a list of Catholic Societies for example. It's hard to tell from the article but the reference as worded doesn't seem to be supporting anything. Canterbury Tail   talk  23:27, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The book of Archbishop McQuaid is in Googlebooks. Unfortunately, the reference is not complete in Googlebooks, since the following page is not visible in the preview.  Regarding the book of Finola Kennedy, I don't remember quite well what did it say, but it was something along the lines that Frank Duff (the Irishman founder of the worldwide Legion of Mary) attended the Society, or that the Society lended him the room for his meetings. I don't remember well, and I already gave back the book to the person who lent it to me some time ago. Elchupaya (talk • contribs) 22:57, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
 * If you want to find more books making reference to the Society, it is a matter of going to Googlebooks and entering the following: "Laurentian Society" -pulmonary -quebec -canadian -tuberculosis -vergil .  Unfortunately, many of them has restricted view. I know that there are more books making reference to the Society which are not in googlebooks. Elchupaya (talk • contribs) 23:48, 17 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Fairness The society is undoubtedly of historical importance in Trinity College and external sources have been provided. If you're going to delete this article you'll have to be consistent and delete other (of lesser historial importance) societies' pages, e.g. Trinity LGBT and Vincent de Paul Society. Supadog (talk) 18:40, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Fairness and Other stuff exists are not criteria for keeping an article. Anyway the LGBT is notable for being the first LGBT society in Ireland, the other one maybe should be looked at but is not relevant to this discussion. Canterbury Tail   talk  23:27, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep I agree with the previous statement about this society's historical importance. I do not think it is a matter of fairness.  It is a matter of real relevance for Irish history.  We all know about the historical oppression of Catholics in Ireland. Therefore, a Catholic society in a Protestant University founded by the daughter of Henry VIII (who started imposing strongly the reformation in Ireland), is not just another Catholic society.  The year in which it was founded is also important, since it was founded only a few years before the Civil Rights Movement in Northern Ireland.  In other words, it is not as if it were just a Catholic society in a U.S.A. University. --Uni154 (talk) 20:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * New External References: The Irish Times After a very time consuming and detailed work I was able to gather many references of The Irish Times (probably the most important newspaper in the country) about the Laurentian Society. The articles show that the Laurentian Society is historically very important, because of its relation to the ban of Catholics from entering Trinity and to a lesser extent other issues, such as the White Paper on the Irish Language.  It also shows that many events of the Society had coverage in the national media.Elchupaya (talk • contribs) 22:48, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Mainstream newspapers are a good indicator of notability. If the press refers to a University society on several occasions, this means that the society must be or must have been relevant.  We may not be interested in it ourselves, but mainstream media is an impartial and close to home judge. --Jbaranao (talk) 20:56, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Wifione  Message 05:04, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

While the argument based on "other stuff" may not be so strong. It is interesting that the Laurentian Society supported and helped VDP which has its own article. Laurentian Society Trinity in google yields plenty of results. http://www.gaa.tcdlife.ie/?q=node/55 http://books.google.ie/books?id=x74W2bt9zHkC&pg=PA389&lpg=PA389&dq=Laurentian+Society+Trinity&source=bl&ots=PJlsU_dFla&sig=KOakr49XhOx2l2K7M39q96d3oC4&hl=ga&sa=X&ei=qLZDT9k9gpn7BtrKzNsF&ved=0CBoQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=Laurentian%20Society%20Trinity&f=false} If its not notable then surely this article would fall under original research (which it clearly isnt given the references to online notable sources). It is encyclopedic in nature, and an important part of trinity life and history (as well as Irish catholic history). --Fredbobhurst (talk) 15:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC) ]] 
 * Keep Mainstream newspapers indicate notability. Very relevant in an important part of Irish social history, (the Ban; opposing policies of the Catholic Church in an era of apparent power in the country,see google books link below). Notable references to Legion of Mary & Catholic Culture and history in the country. It is also notable that in a period of decline for the Catholic Church in Ireland that students revived the society as recently as 2011 despite the recent scandals, notable in itself. It could therefore be an important and notable presence on Campus in the future. It has been be involved in controversial issues (note the lecture on Abortion and racism, referenced in the article) and could well be in the future with the increasing secularisation of the country.
 * Keep. The society was crucial in overcoming a centuries-old historical oddity (the Catholic Church banning its followers from studying at the most prestigious university in a predominantly Catholic country); if you admit that this ban was an important part of 20th century Irish history, then it's hard to argue against the notability of an organisation that played an important part in this story - and the fact that the society did play such an important part is sufficiently backed up with external references. The society also received a lot of coverage in the University's student newspaper - and the argument that a student newspaper is not a sufficiently independent source for matters relating to that university is not that convincing to me since the students writing for the paper are not necessarily those with vested interests in the subject matter covered (otherwise you would hardly ever see anything critical about the university in student newspapers). To put matters in perspective, the Cherwell has long been considered a reliable and citable source for matters pertaining to similarly renowned Oxford University. Oh, and btw: Given how strong the Catholic faith still is in Ireland, including its influence on secular politics, I guess that the Catholic society at a university where many of the country's leaders have been educated may be considered as having some notability just as a conseqence of this. SchnitteUK (talk) 19:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I just added references to the Society made by a Canadian newspaper. --Elchupaya (talk) 21:48, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.