Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Leader of the Eyre/Heller Dynasty in the United States


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was delete. Proto /// type  14:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Leader of the Eyre/Heller Dynasty in the United States
PROD tag removed. Appears to be part of a series of articles about a so-called "Eyre/Heller Dynasty", for which there are no references and zero Google hits. The other articles are under PROD as of this nomination; from a reading of them this seems to be some sort of genealogical project regarding a number of non-notable persons. Unclear if it's a hoax, but it's certainly unverifiable and original research and speculation at best. Delete. MCB 07:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Note: related articles are covered by a separate AfD discussion under Articles for deletion/George Eyre. Paddles TC 12:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete, at least fails WP:NOR and WP:V. --Coredesat 07:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per nomination, and also delete the related articles. —Quarl (talk) 2006-06-22 07:51Z 
 * Delete all.Blnguyen | rant-line 07:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete Couldn't find anything on these people, or the dynasty, even before this AfD was submitted. See my other AfD for all the reasoning I give for this deletion. Kevin_b_er 09:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment After going insane wondering why otherpage didn't work, I finally got the nominations for the people on the list as well. Kevin_b_er 09:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete conspiracycruft. Danny Lilithborne 10:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom, non-notable. Paddles TC 12:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Keep All I would just like to add that most of the people in this grouping, with the exception of Jehu Eyre, Jr. and Anne Eyre Heller, already had longstanding articles about them before they had Infoboxes tagged on. The Infobox alone should not qualify them for deletion. Rather, the Infoboxes ought to be removed. I mean, for goodness' sakes, the Jehu Eyre article is extremely well-sourced. There is no debate whatsoever in the historical community that he was a crucial figure in the Revolution. A quick look at the references shows this. I would urge the author of these articles to please enter this discussion.

I am not partial to any one editor, but am a former history teacher and would consider it a terrible shame if notable articles were to be deleted because someone felt the need to include the word "dynasty" where perhaps it wasn't viable (which point I confute anyway). Please read all of these articles IN THEIR ENTIRETY, as I have, before deciding on deletion.

I know that Jehu Eyre, at the very least, is quite notable, and would include the rest of his family as well, if simply for the fact that they carried on his money and his traditions.

Not only that, but each individual article ought to have its own deletion page. Leader of the Eyre/Heller Dynasty in the United States is on a quite different level than Jehu Eyre. The latter is highly notable, while the former is somewhat questionable.

Joan53 16:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)Joan53

Oh, yikes. Wow, I wrote all of these articles, and didn't realize they were up for deletion. I suppose that's my fault for not sourcing them better. Okay, here we go:


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 * A Truelove family history 800-1500
 * Origin of the name Ayre
 * A 100-year-old transcript which refers to "True Love" instead of "Truelove"
 * From The Genealogy of the Ayers Family, New York City, 1902
 * A short account of the family of Eyre of Eyrecourt
 * Burke's Peerage, 1937
 * http://homepage.tinet.ie/~rookery/castle17.html
 * http://www.butson.net/who_are_these_eyres.htm
 * http://www.celticcousins.net/ireland/1846eyrecourt.htm
 * http://www.celticcousins.net/ireland/1824eyrecourt.htm
 * http://www.meddows-taylor.com/Eyre.htm
 * http://www.ireland-now.com/restored_b.html
 * http://www.galwaylibrary.ie/history/indices/buildingindex.html
 * http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/castles/irecastl-Galway.htm
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Hold on, let me look for more.

History21 16:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)History21

Okay, this:

Title: Business papers, 1795-1847 (bulk 1800-1805). Description: 720 items. Notes: Manuel Eyre, a Philadelphia merchant of Quaker ancestry, was born in 1777. His father, Manuel Eyre, Sr., [take note, as this man was the subject of one of my articles] (1736-1805) was a shipwright in Kensington and a colonel in the Contintental Army. He obtained his training in the counting house of Henry Pratt and Abraham Kintzing and in 1803 joined with Charles Massey, Jr., (b. 1778) to form the mercantile firm of Eyre & Massey, a partnership that lasted until Eyre's death in 1845. The firm of Eyre & Massey owned over 20 vessels, ranging in size from ships to sloops, and traded around the world, mounting voyages to Europe, the Caribbean, South America, China, India and the Pacific Islands. Manuel Eyre also served on the Philadelphia City Council and was a founding director of the Schuylkill Navigation Company (1816) and the Second Bank of the United States (1816). After 1820 he gradually retired from active trading and devoted much of his time to agriculture. He owned two farms outside the city and three in Delaware. He was the founder of Delaware City, Del., at the mouth of the Chesapeake & Delaware Canal, buying the entire site in 1828, erecting public buildings and dividing it into lots.

comes from here:

This:

Mr. Rumsey says in page 2, "That in the month of September, 1781 he exhibited the model of a Boat to his Excellency General Washington at Bath in Berkeley County, calculated for stemming the current of rapid rivers only constructed on principles very different from (his) present one ; satisfied of the experiment of her making way against a rapid stream by the force of the stream the General was pleased to give me a most ample certificate of her efficacy." Here it is to be observed, that no mention was made to General Washington of steam at the time of such exhibition ; the principles on which the Boat was propelled, were entirely unconnected with, and distinct from steam; being simply a model propelled by water wheels, cranks, and setting poles ; a mode which was many years ago tried on the river Schuylkill by a farmer near Reading, but without success. From an exhibition of this plan it was that Mr. Rumsey procured the certificate from General Washington, and on that certificate were Mr. Rumsey's laws founded. In his petitions to the several legislatures, he prayed for no exclusive right, for the use of Steam Boats; neither did be make mention of Steam, to their committees; or even suggest an idea of the kind; as proof of which, I offer the following petition to the Assembly of Pennsylvania the certificate from General Washington, accompanying it, and the certificate of Manuel Eyre, Esquire, who was one of the committee of Assembly, who reported in Mr. Rumsey's- favor.

comes from here:

This:

"Memorials of Colonel Jehu Eyre." Edited by Peter D. Keyser. Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography, 3 (1879), pp. 296-307, 412-425

comes from here:

This:

The same day the Navy Board recommended to Council that as there were reasons to believe that some vessels of the English fleet would attempt to approach the city, a certain number of persons should be assigned to flood Hog Island, and that ninety or one hundred men should garrison the fort at Darby Creek. Council requested the Navy Board to see to the flooding of the Island, and ordered a company of artillery and a company of "Musqueters," under the command of Col. Jehu Eyre, to the works at Darby Creek.

comes from here:

This:

Since its founding, the cemetery has had a self-perpetuating board of trustees to look over its affairs. The board has included such notables as the Emmanuel and Jehu Eyre, shipbuilders to the Continental Navy. The board of trustees has kept the cemetery independent over all these years and has also withstood an attempt by a local church to usurp it.

comes from here:

This: When the Revolution broke out in 1775, Hewson organized a company of volunteers from his own Kensington workmen and served as their Captain. He was joined in this patriotic response by the shipwright Jehu Eyre, who captained his own ship carpenters, workmen, and apprentices in the "Kensington Artillery." The Eyre shipyards at the foot of Columbia Avenue hastily constructed thirteen gondolas and galleys for use in the defense of the city.

comes from here:

This: Manuel Eyre built the first gun-boat for the Government. It was launched at Philadelphia, July 26, 1775, and was called the “Bull Dog.” He organized his workmen into a company of minute men and commanded them at Trenton and Princeton. When he was selected by the Council of Safety as a member of the Navy Board, his company was merged into that of his brother Jehu.

comes from here:

Other sources:


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If their wealth is in dispute, this: should clear that up.

I'll find more and post them soon, I promise!! (Thanks for the heads-up, Joan!)

History21 17:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)History21


 * Comment: This is not a collective AfD for all articles about people referred to in the article nominated. Perhaps one or two of them might warrant an article, but the idea that there was something called the "Eyre/Heller Dynasty" fails any sort of sourcing or verification test. It appears to have been something made up by one or more Wikipedia editors. Please do not confuse this Afd by posting a large quantity of collateral material about individual persons whose articles are not in question here. If you have a reliable source showing the existence of the "Eyre/Heller Dynasty in the United States", please note it here. Otherwise it would be helpful if you removed the extraneous material, or moved it to this AfD's Talk page. Thanks, --MCB 21:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep A HOAX!??!?! This family lent the early American Government the money it needed to fight the Revolutionary War, that is a historical FACT and no amount of spin can change that. Wikipedia is really slipping under, no wonder so many good people are leaving or have left already. TruthCrusader 19:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The "hoax" idea is not that these people did not exist, but that there ever was something like a so-called "Eyre/Heller Dynasty", which no reliable source -- indeed, no source other than Wikipedia -- has ever heard of. --MCB 21:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This family lent the early American Government the money it needed to fight the Revolutionary War Including Anne Eyre Heller (1838 – 1876)? Man, the American Revolutionary War went on longer than I thought. --Calton | Talk 04:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete on this one, but I think the individual articles could stand up with proper sourcing - depending on WP:BIO after cleanup. Facts like the one mentioned above should be incorporated into the article of the person who orchestrated the loan. Tony Fox (speak) 20:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete the nominated article. No "dynasty" and no "leader of the dynasty" can be shown to have existed.  Yes, it was an important family; so the individual articles should be sourced with citations, and the most significant any verifiably significant ones should be kept; but this article's title and content don't present an encyclopedic topic.  No rename nor merge nor redirect.  Barno 23:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment Okay, that is what I wanted to know. Because all of the other Eyre articles' deletion discussions link to this one, I assumed that a decision for deletion of this article would mean a deletion for all of the articles. The simple deletion of this section would be something that, while I would not like, I could certainly accept.

Before you come to that, though, I ask of you to please consider my sources. Just because a family was not proclaimed a "dynasty" in its time does not mean that it didn't display dynastic traits in practice. The loaning of significant sums to the federal government, the association with Washington and the family's deep involvement in the Revolution, and the family's continued wealth after the war (i.e., Manuel Eyre, Jr., Jehu Eyre, Jr., Anne Eyre Heller, etc) all the way down to the Crash of 1929 certainly qualify it as a very influential and important component of American history.

And I dispute that Anne Eyre was not important; in marrying Amos Heller, she united two of the richest clans in the nation. You see, I have yet to post my sources on the Hellers, who were a significant force by themselves. I'll ask you to give me some time. Thank you all for your consideration and I ask of you to please face this with an open mind.

At the very least, should any of the individual articles be removed (which I assure you that, as a history major, I will fight quite bitterly), I would ask that I be allowed to create a single article about the significance of the family as a whole. I repeat, though, that it should not come to that. I will be providing more sources soon.

History21 03:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)History21


 * Just because a family was not proclaimed a "dynasty" in its time does not mean that it didn't display dynastic traits in practice. In other words, this is a conclusion you yourself made. Around here, we call that "original research", and it's explicitly not allowed., because this is neither a primary scholarly resource nor a personal genealogical database. If you want to document the family tree, there are software packages especially designed for that as well as personal wikis, but those things don't belong here. --Calton | Talk 04:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete. Original research; idiosyncratic and made-up terms; inflating of importance (note that the individual articles use the "President" infobox), etc. And burying us in citations doesn't menea diddly unless those citations are specific support for your contention that the this "dynasty" is all that important to begin with. --Calton | Talk 04:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment They bankrolled the Revolution (both Jehu and Manuel), provided a significant chunck of the Continental Navy, saw their properties devastated in the British invasion of Philadelphia (where, it should be mentioned, Eyre Street is named in their honor (and I will source that)), founded at least one city (through Manuel Eyre, Jr. (which is already in the sources)), maintained a global shipping company (through Jehu Eyre, Jr., Manuel Eyre, Jr., and their descendants), united two of the wealthiest groups in the United States (through the Anne Eyre-Amos Heller marriage), are directly tied to many historical monuments throughout the United States (Laurel Hill Cemetery, Grange Estate, the Eyre Mansion) and around the world (Eyrecourt Castle), are relations of the Wikipedia-recognized Vanderslice family of lawyers (through the Franklin Pierce Heller-Gertrude Vanderslice marriage), played a role in the U.S. Civil War (if less pronounced than their influence on the Revolution), were directly associated with George Washington, and remained in the upper strata of American society until the Stock Market Crash of 1929, the greatest economic disaster in American history, ended their nine-century ride (two centuries in the United States, seven in Great Britain and Ireland). You don't think these people are notable?

History21 05:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)History21


 * Try actually reading what I wrote instead of exercising your touch-typing skills. Oh, and asking strawman rhetorical questions? ALWAYS convincing. --Calton | Talk 05:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What's touch-typing? Did I make a typo? And I have read what you said, I just disagree with you. Please try to remain professional about this.

History21 05:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)History21


 * Oh, never mind, I get it: you're saying that I just sat down and started spouting off my opinions without paying attention to you. No, that's not true. I understand where you're coming from, but I still think that you're wrong.

History21 05:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)History21

P.S.

You may be surprised to know that I actually type with my two middle fingers (no, this is not an indirect statement of hostility--I'm completely serious). I never learned the correct way to type, but am simply very fast. I thought that was worth mentioning.
 * History21, Wikipedia is not a place to practice your own historical research and scholarship; it's an encyclopedia that relies on the concept of reliable sources, which we summarize and collect into what we hope are authoritative and comprehensive articles. This does not mean synthesizing your own academic theories about the importance of various individuals by putting together pieces of somewhat obscure historical primary sources. That's what Calton and others mean by original research. That type of material is best suited to journal articles, monographs, and books; if your theories become widely accepted among historians, then they will be welcome in Wikipedia. --MCB 05:47, 23 June

2006 (UTC)

Okay, here is the first thing on the Hellers:. I am going to get more, I just need some time!

History21 01:41, 25 June 2006 (UTC)History21

Resources on the Hellers:


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More are coming. The Hellers aren't as easy to find as the Eyres.

History21 01:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)History21


 * Delete the lot. See Articles for deletion/Eyre Empire, it's all a hoax.  User:Zoe|(talk) 02:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, my. I didn't realize we had been through all this before. Yikes. Apparently, this is somebody's cryptohistorical hobbyhorse. This is getting ridiculous. And History21, again, please read Wikipedia guidelines on reliable sources. Amateur genealogy from unreviewed personal web pages like those cited above from Angelfire, Rootsweb, and Geocities are not reliable sources, and if you have to resort to them to "prove" the existence and notability of this "dynasty" of Eyres and Hellers and Vanderwhoositses, you have basically admitted lack of verifiabity for Wikipedia purposes. Again: Wikipedia is not a place to research and present your personal theories on American history by digging through obscure personal web sites. When you have convinced the community of mainstream historians of the existence of this "dynasty", and we can verify the identities and facts about the lives of its members from reliable sources, that is the point when it should be included in Wikpedia. --MCB 05:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete' Leader of the Eyre/Heller Dynasty in the United States as Original reasearch and I mentioned the name of the article because I have not looked through the individual personages yet to determine individual notability, so I don't want this construed as a blanket delete.--Isotope23 13:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.