Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/League of Romanian Students Abroad


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  essay  // 04:48, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

League of Romanian Students Abroad

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Never mind the strong promotional tone, the uncited (often uncitable) statements, the one-hit author. What's problematic here is the lack of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", as required by WP:GNG. Let's go through the footnotes:


 * This note refers to the group's own website, and thus is not independent.
 * This note makes no mention of the group . [See reply below]
 * This note is a blog post and thus not a reliable source.
 * This note is a press release noting Romania's Foreign Minister attended an event sponsored by the group. First, note that this is a press release, with material for the most part probably supplied by the League itself, and thus not really an independent source. Second, the Minister is constantly attending private functions ; this doesn't automatically confer notability on them.
 * This note gives passing mention to the group in a human-interest story in a college newsletter; this hardly establishes any sort of notability.
 * This note gives even more fleeting mention about a website the group co-launched; again, not exactly significant coverage.
 * This note is a blog post and merely mentions that the group signed a petition; obviously irrelevant for our purposes. Biruitorul Talk 06:05, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:39, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I cannot agree with the reviw of "Biruitorul". For instance, Note 2 -- follow the link to identify a clear mention of the group. Also, the LSRS is one of the most important NGOs in Romania just based on the number of members and global spread of this globalization; the facts speak for themselves. Note 4 - it is a press release of the Romanian Foreign Affairs Ministry, quoting the Minister himself. There is no such release anywhere else to suggest it was put out by anyone associated with the LSRS.

Moreover, I have adopted a neutral tone and pointed out controversial/problematic issues about the group when necessary. A simple Internet search for "liga studentilor romani din strainatate" shows over 100,000 results! The relative scarcity of English sources should not necessarily disqualify this group from inclusion, but I'll let the wikipedia community judge that.

There is also a relation to the Organization of Serbian Students Abroad (OSSI), which has a nice wikipedia article as well. If the policy of wikipedia is to delete this article for lack of references, it is regrettable in my opinion.

Finally, there should be more time allowed for gathering "reliable" sources. I could have added many more in Romanian, but I'm trying to include English language sources! I appreciate the input! Thank you very much! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Romanian Maverick (talk • contribs) 04:06, 20 February 2011 (UTC) — Romanian Maverick (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Four points:
 * 1) We actually don't have an article on the Organization of Serbian Students Abroad, and anyway, see WP:WAX.
 * 2) I was mistaken; does indeed mention that the League conducted a survey, but that hardly rises to the level of significant coverage.
 * 3) I invite readers to peruse this press release. Based on the tone, it seems highly likely the Foreign Ministry didn't write the entire text, but rather that much of it was supplied by the League itself.
 * 4) Whatever the Google count (and see WP:GHITS for that), there are only a little over a hundred unique results, most of which fall afoul of WP:RS. - Biruitorul Talk 19:14, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Update: new links inform us that this guy and this lady (scroll down, on the right) have won awards from the League. Interesting, but handing out awards is not necessarily a determinant of notability. Neither is organizing a conference.
 * What is telling is that the League is not mentioned in depth by any Romanian newspaper: either not at all (Gândul, Jurnalul Naţional), or just barely in passing (Evenimentul Zilei, Cotidianul''). An organization that can't attract notice from the press in its own country (one with a perennial focus on Romanians abroad, I might add) shouldn't feature in this encyclopedia either. - Biruitorul Talk 19:14, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * a brief google search shows there are many mentions in the Romanian press about the organization. Besides the 4 you have picked to support your argument, there are a lot more, from more reliable newspapers: financiarul, realitatea are just the two most obvious one can find in under 10 seconds. It is unrealistic to expect a newspaper to write a story about the organization, as opposed to about the events of the organization.  Furthermore when the press constantly writes  about the events and projects of an NGO, that means the NGOS is notable. The fact that most major newspapers, a bunch of local newspapers and a handful of glossy formats, plus a few national prime time television shows (news and entertainment shows) plus the Romanian embassies mention the organization, should be relevant. If nothing else, I believe giving the article another 3 months time to develop is appropriate. Deni120 (talk) 21:49, 20 February 2011 (UTC) — Deni120 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * The first source you provide is largely lifted from the League's FAQ. The second one mentions the League handed out some awards &mdash; again, handing out awards does not automatically make someone notable. Whatever is or is not unrealistic in your view, I do expect at least one (genuinely) independent source to cover an organization itself, if it is to have an article here. This is the case for, say, the Writers' Union of Romania or ASTRA, but does not appear to be so for the League. - Biruitorul Talk 23:18, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Handing out awards is extremely notable when you are the only organization recognizing the best Romanian students abroad in a given year. There are more than 50,000 Romanian students around the world, fellow members of this community, and when an Award Ceremony brings together the most important Romanian academic and political stakeholders, from Ionel Haiduc, president of the Romanian Academy, to the Senate's President, to the Foreign Affairs Minister and the president of the National Liberal Party -- that is very, very notable, especially in front of over 800 people.


 * It is completely unfair to demand extensive coverage in the English language as a criterion for notability -- but I don't think wikipedia does. It seems to be, however, the opinion of certain individual users. I'm not sure why.

How about sources like this one? http://www.dilemaveche.ro/sectiune/educatie/articol/studen-ii-romani-strainatate-gindul-romania Dilema Veche is one of the most reputable journals in Romania.
 * There are over 125,000 mentions of "Liga studentilor romani din strainatate" -- Google it please. http://www.google.com/search?q=%22liga+studentilor+romani+din+strainatate%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=%22liga+studentilor+romani+din+strainatate%22&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=iP2&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&ei=KQ9jTfbPKMuCtgfkkuyzDA&start=10&sa=N&bav=on.1,or.&fp=b5fc6a07c812d0bf

Or here: http://catavencu.ro/liga-studentilor-romani-din-strainatate-breaking-news-38034

And this: http://www.a1.ro/cautare/liga-studentilor-romani-din-strainatate-942857.html One of the top-3 news TV stations in Romania...seems notable, I think.

And Pro TV, a rival TV station: http://www.protv.ro/noutati/protv-international-alaturi-de-liga-studentilor-romani-din-strainatate.

And studentie.ro, the largest student portal in Romania: http://www.studentie.ro/campus/LIGA_STUDENTILOR_ROMANI_DIN_STRAINATATE/c-70-a-50391

Ziare.com: http://www.ziare.com/scoala/studenti/cei-mai-buni-studenti-romani-de-peste-hotare-premiati-in-tara-1067141

What exactly do you mean by "genuinely independent source"? Would you suppose an NGO like this one has the capacity or resources to get this kind of coverage from rival media outlets?! Sorry to say, that is unrealistic at least in Romania.


 * As a general note, I think it is reasonable to expect the Wiki community to make judgments based on whether enough people care about one organization or another. In this case, I think LSRS passes the test.

Also, since you asked... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_Serbian_Students_Abroad

Finally, do you really think the Foreign Minister of a country lets an NGO write press releases that appear on the Ministry's official website?! We may be poor, but not that poor... the minister has his own staff for that kind of thing. And while the tone may be promotional, I don't think it promotes LSRS but...the Minister :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Romanian Maverick (talk • contribs) 01:35, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Rewrite I'm leaning toward a keep in this case, even though the article reads like promotion, and some "sources" need to go per WP:RS. Judging from the links above, the League did get some coverage (I myself find mention in Dilema Veche particularly convincing for that). Dahn (talk) 04:21, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Brevity is a virtue in these sorts of discussions; clear and concise posts tend to be more effective than large walls of text. Decisions are made based on the strength of arguments, not how many kilobytes each argument takes up.  The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 05:00, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Bushranger One ping only 01:43, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete After reviewing the sourcing, I'm not convinced that this is a notable organization. The nominator summed it up quite well.  The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 07:47, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. Article has been improved since the nomination and the sources appear somewhat more reliable. All things being equal, it's more difficult to find sources for Romanian organizations.-- Pink Bull  01:04, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.