Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lebanese Aramaic (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__.  Malinaccier ( talk ) 01:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Lebanese Aramaic
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Renominating this page for deletion, as there was no input from any third party last time (closed as "no consensus").

Motivation from last time still holds:
 * Fails WP:GNG
 * See my first entry on the article's talk page here.
 * The article mostly gives examples of Syriac language used in Lebanon. The intended topic of the article is an Aramaic language (probably Western) spoken in Lebanon in earlier times.
 * From my knowledge, this language/dialect is not documented, thus not discussed in Aramaic studies.
 * Few to none WP:RS discusses this "Lebanese Aramaic" or "Lebanese Syriac" or "Surien" language. Content much based on this article, not a WP:RS. Shmayo (talk) 09:07, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Language, Lebanon,  and Syria.  WC  Quidditch   ☎   ✎  10:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep: As already stated in the previous nomination an article about a language is notable. The article discusses both the vernacular Aramaic and classical Syriac as the two are tightly connected and furthermore the term Syriac was used at time to refer to Aramaic. Wikipedia does not care about what you do or do not believe from your own knowledge (WP:VERIFYOR) but relies on reliable sources which are already provided in the page. Even if Iskander’s source is contestable Bawardi and Wardini both use the term “Lebanese Aramaic” which you have conveniently left out. I already stated in the previous nomination you are free to edit the page, as everyone is, but you seem to have ignored this as you did my counters to your same points in the previous nomination which makes it seem like you are nominating this based on WP:WINNING rather than anything else. Regardless, I have amended the page to help distinct between the colloquial Aramaic and classical Syriac as that seems to be where part of the confusion is coming from. Red Phoenician (talk) 22:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)


 * No need to accuse me of anything. There was no third-party opinion last time, which is what I am seeking here. To me, there is no "significant coverage" on this topic, thus no need for a separate Lebanese Aramaic article. Western Aramaic was obviously spoken in Lebanon, and Syriac is a part of the Maronite church - but a separate article, heavly based on that Iskander article and some WP:OR (and plenty information solely on Syriac)... I do not see how this is notable with one reference to "Lebanese Aramaic" in Bawardi's book and another one in a project description by Wardini. Let's hope his research will give us some more insight in time. This is not comparable with e.g. CPA, which is actually discussed in Aramaic studies. Shmayo (talk) 12:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There was the third-party opinion of user Maclearie so that is false. Again, this is a contradiction of “the topic has no sources except for the sources which explicitly mention it but let us just deem them irrelevant.” Not sure where the accusation of me adding original research comes from as I have cited all of the information I added but I would like to see a supposed example of such. Red Phoenician (talk) 03:30, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Doczilla  Ohhhhhh, no! 05:49, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Third-party as in someone not highly active in this topic (i.e. Lebanon). I have not stated anything about you, this is not about you, but the article. Why would "Syriac alphabet" be listed under writing system? For example. Shmayo (talk) 07:23, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Not sure why it is seen as bad if a user is more knowledgeable about said topic but you are right I made an error with the writing system and have corrected it. Red Phoenician (talk) 04:04, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen&times; &#9742;  23:04, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment - please assume I know nothing about this topic. What sources are there that show this is a distinct dialect or language from the topic of Western Aramaic languages please? They don't have to be in English. Thanks. JMWt (talk) 07:02, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello, besides a source from Wardini and one from Bawardi  explicitly mentioning Lebanese Aramaic there is also the “Introduction to Aramean and Syriac Studies” by Akopian which mentions “the local Western Aramaic dialect”  as well as another source from Wardini discussing its “complex development which in some cases is parallel to, yet often distinct from, the development of its Modern West Aramaic cousins.”  Red Phoenician (talk) 01:56, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok thanks. Are any of those significant coverage as per the GNG? JMWt (talk) 07:00, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, Wardini's sources are specifically about the language. Red Phoenician (talk) 23:17, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete - nothing much offered in the way of sources. The best source is apparently one written about placenames in Aramaic, but this is hardly demonstrative of a distinct dialect of the language. JMWt (talk) 05:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The source explicitly describes it as distinct so not sure where this is coming from. Red Phoenician (talk) 05:57, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok, let's agree to disagree. JMWt (talk) 07:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.