Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lee Goodwin


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 07:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Lee Goodwin

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Fails WP:ATHLETE as he never played in a fully professional league. During his games at Dagenham they were not fully professional including their school teacher top goalscorer and more notably fails WP:N having only played in the English Fourth tier.
 * Delete, as nominator.--Vintagekits (talk) 22:00, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions.  -- – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 01:15, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - played in the Football League ArtVandelay13 (talk) 08:15, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - played in the league when there was a part time player on the team - therefore fails WP:ATHLETE.--Vintagekits (talk) 08:55, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment - it doesn't matter, it's the Football League - a few exceptions don't change a league that's been overwhelmingly professional for over 100 years. This is an absurd technicality. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 10:42, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment, yes WP:ATHLETE is adsurd, I agree - and it needs a complete overhaul. Without it this article would be deleted in a shot. Bring it on. Also it looks like Jamie Forrester is also part time and possibly a few at Burton Albion!--Vintagekits (talk) 21:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about whether Burton Albion are full-time or part-time (the newsstory you linked to confirms that some players are full time, and I'd imagine they'd be going fully pro now they've made it to the league), but Jamie Forrester has played for a shedload of pro teams in his time. Bettia   (bring on the trumpets!)  06:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah but Forrester was part time for much of it. Thereby making the league part time.--Vintagekits (talk) 08:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Looking at his infobox, all I see are fully professional teams, including Leeds who were in the top flight at the time. Out of all those teams listed, which of them do you consider part-time? Bettia   (bring on the trumpets!)  08:42, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Look further towards the bottom darling. Since 2006 he has been part time. Making the leagues he played in part time!--Vintagekits (talk) 08:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Lincoln and Notts County are fully professional teams, and have been for decades. Bettia   (bring on the trumpets!)  09:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * How can they by "fully professional" if they play a part time player.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Where does it say that? The coaching school? Having additional interests in addition to a professional contract doesn't make you part-time. In any case, the FL has had occasional amateurs in professional teams since its foundation, it doesn't change the fundamental fact that it's a professional competition. This Dave Rainford thing is the most ridiculous thing I've seen on WP:FOOTY, and that's saying something ArtVandelay13 (talk) 09:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "outside interests" is one thing but this is a full time job outside of the club he is playing for - its hardly turning up for an hour at the opening of a shop.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe you should tell him that. On his school's website, Jamie states "I am currently a professional footballer for Notts County." And even if he was semi-professional now (which he clearly isn't), his pro career would still see him pass WP:ATHLETE with flying colours. Bettia   (bring on the trumpets!)  09:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * He's still paid a full-time wage, and he still attends the same amount of training sessions as all the other full-time players, so he's full-time. All footballers have a lot of free-time, it doesn't change their professionalism. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 09:19, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) If he is working another regular job then they are part time - simple as. I am not saying he isnt personally notable - he is for playing at his previous clubs - but it just further emphasises that the league is not fully pro. Here are some more examples - Dave McKearney at Morcambe kept his job when Morcambe went into the League, John Askey was an insurance saleman when he played for Macclesfield, Darren Tinson was an anaesthetist, Liam Dickinson was a graphic designer when he was playing for Stockport County, Neil Howarth was a journalist when he was playing for Macclesfield, Paul O'Connor worked in the Wilkinson Sword factory near Hartlepool whilsts playing for them and famously had to missed a reply in the FA Cup against York because his boss wouldnt let him change his shift!--Vintagekits (talk) 09:36, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I heard about the Paul O'Connor story. As far Darren Tinson goes, according to this report in The Sun, he left his job before joining Macclesfield. Anyway, this AfD is going wildly off-topic now - if we want to continue down this line, may I suggest taking this to WP:FOOTY? Bettia   (bring on the trumpets!)  09:53, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Its not going "wildly off topic" at all. It's showing that the league isnt "fully professional" - I actually dont consider the league at all notable but members of the FOOTY Project seem to have orcastrated a position wherby if you play 1 single minute of 1 single game then that makes you automatically notable. You choose not to use any commonsense with regards actual notability and say you are sticking rigidly to the rules - well if we are to stick rigidly to the rules then he fails WP:ATH because the league aint fully professional. --Vintagekits (talk) 09:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, WP:ATHLETE wan't drafted by the FOOTY project at all, it was a consensus arrived at by the Wikipedia community as a whole. If you don't like the way it's worded, you need to go WT:BIO. As far as Burton are concerned, their chairman has confirmed they are going full time now they have been promoted. Jamie Forrester isn't working full-time at his football academy and is on a full-time professional contract, John Askey left his job when signing full-time for Macclesfield, Liam Dickinson only worked part-time when he was playing for non-league clubs, and Howarth's journalism job consists of a weekly column in local newspapers. I can't find anything to confirm that Dave McKearney was working part-time while playing in the league. The only Football League part-timer you've got on your list there is Paul O'Connor - together with Dave Rainford you've got two very rare exceptions, and its highly unlikely that'd be enough to convince anyone (let alone WP:FOOTY or the Wikipedia community as a whole) that League 2 isn't fully professional. Bettia   (bring on the trumpets!)  10:40, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Burton - the chairman might say they are going full time - but that is not the case - chairmen and truth eh! Jamie Forrester does run his academy and doesnt train every day wit the the squad. John Askey did continue with his insurance job for the majority of his career. Howarth not only wrote for the Macclesfield express he also attended university in Bolton doing a degree in journalism whilst also playing for Macc. Darren Tinson still works in the medical field - and was at university whilst playing and working another job! And you admit to O'Connor and Rainford - now i know you are a stickler for complying with the rules so if we apply them here like you like to apply them elsewhere then they fail WP:ATH.--Vintagekits (talk) 10:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you provide sources for all your facts please? Bettia   (bring on the trumpets!)  10:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. GiantSnowman 11:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep passes WP:ATHLETE by having played in a fully-pro league. GiantSnowman 11:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment, its been proven that not alone is their part times in the league but there is part timers in his team. Looks like the FOOTY Project members arnt happy about that little factoid!--Vintagekits (talk) 11:45, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "Proven" where exactly? GiantSnowman 11:49, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Above!--Vintagekits (talk) 11:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * But Bettia has provided links which go against your point...GiantSnowman 12:04, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What he provided links to say Rainford and O'Connor didnt have full time jobs as well as play in the mickey mouse league? no, he didnt! And if you actually read the links that he provided what he is saying isnt actually true - as pointed out in my previous post.--Vintagekits (talk) 12:42, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. I don't agree with Vintagekits assertion that one part-timer is enough to drag the entire league down to semi-professional level, and this player does pass WP:ATHLETE thanks to his one game in the Football League (confirmed by Soccerbase). However, one game isn't enough for me (I have opposed similar articles in the past) and in addition there aren't enough third-party sources to satify WP:N - apart from match reports, so far all I've found is one story about him breaking his leg in 2006. Bettia   (bring on the trumpets!)  13:16, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. Subject clearly meets the WP:ATHLETE guideline. WP:POINT. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:14, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Question, how does he meet WP:ATHLETE?--Vintagekits (talk) 21:41, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Because he's played in the Football League, for goodness' sake. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 07:13, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes he played in the 4th Division - but only at a time when when it wasnt "fully professional" - therefore failing WP:ATH.--Vintagekits (talk) 08:26, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:GAME comes to mind. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 16:25, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep: Passes ATHLETE because he played in League Two Big  Dom  11:06, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep I don't think having an article that merely passes WP:BIO and completely fails WP:N is enough for inclusion; especially when that article doesn't include a single reference. However, I've tried expanding the article and feel it now meets WP:N aptly. Mattythewhite (talk) 16:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - passes ATHLETE despite what the nominee asserts; nomination seems to be made on grounds of WP:POINT. matt91486 (talk) 20:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.