Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Legend Heart Records, LLC.


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was DELETE. Homey 23:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Legend Heart Records, LLC.
The page history suggests that this is a vanity-article. This "independent record label" has apparently released exactly 2 CDs so far. Alexa has no ranking for their website, reporting only that it is not in the top 100,000. Record labels are generally measured against the standards of WP:CORP since they are the businesses, not the musicians. I can not find evidence that this entity meets any of the recommended inclusion criteria.

Note: After the page was nominated for "prod" deletion, the primary author has begun to make this into an essay against Wikipedia's inclusion standards. This appears to indicate a misunderstanding of Wikipedia's goals and standing as a tertiary source. Rossami (talk) 21:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

There is NO vanity here, only the truth of the matter! Legendheart
 * Legend Heart Records, LLC. is a SMALL BUSINESS, which is why it would not be found on any corporate indices; therefore, it should not be compared or measured in this manner.
 * "Tertiary" sources still have an obligation to portray current issues, as they really are.
 * Alexa's web traffic reporting is not accurate, as it currently shows NO traffic for legendheart.com. This is a gross misrepresentation; therefore, Alexa should NOT be used as a "credible source" with which to evaluate notability.


 * Delete - I sympathise with the author and I think WP:MUSIC is slightly (although not massively) flawed in its approach to independent labels. However, an article is not the place to address this and the facts are that the label has issued just 2 albums and, unless both those albums have charted and enjoyed particularly high sales, the label itself cannot assert notability. If Legend Heart is genuinely an advocate for the advancement of equal rights of independent record companies then they will need to provide citation to show that this is a key and noted part of their activities that has been covered in reputable media sources. Ac@osr 21:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete We're not free publicity.--JChap 21:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

'''We're not free publicity??? Are you an owner of Wikipedia?? Do you speak for them?? NO Publicity Sought!''' The criterion being applied to music and record companies on Wikipedia, is currently very flawed. The main reason, is because it does not reflect the true state of the music industry. There are, in fact, TWO sides to this industry; major labels and true independents. A record company calling themselves "independent", who is charting on commercial radio; is NOT a true independent record company. Independent record companies, who are unaffiliated with major labels; are being unfairly locked out of the market, therefore UNABLE to chart. This is NOT publicity, nor is it vanity. It is the truth. This encyclopedia should address current issues, as they really are. Legendheart


 * Please sign your comments with four tild marks (~) Ac@osr 21:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As I have already stated I do have sympathy with your position but the core of this is that a label, whether independent or affiliated to a major, will, on point of fact, struggle to assert notability having only released 2 albums. The article doesn't even state the artists or titles of the albums in question. Ac@osr 21:59, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Article was revised to include CD titles
 * Volume of releases has no bearing on the importance of work being done to improve fairness within the music industry.

NOTE: A "tertiary" source still has an obligation to portray current issues, as they really are. Legendheart


 * For the record, as the revised article doesn't include this information, both CDs are by the artist Legend Heart. This is my last comment on this one. Ac@osr 22:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Article was revised to include artist's name.
 * Here is a link to a 2004 news article about Legend Heart Records: Legendheart


 * Comments. Uncyclopedic diatribe about Wikipedia is removed as unrelated to subject of article. Links and assertions of notability must be made in the article itself. Also; the history of recorded music in the United States is full of independent labels that made it big, most notably Atlantic Records, Motown, Elektra, and A&M Records... Some of these labels made it because of a large stable of acts performing on massive US tours. B.Wind 23:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * No Delete. These aforementioned labels are in fact major labels. They were only able to "make it big" AFTER they had affiliated themselves with a major label. The truth is, NO true independent label "makes it" without a major label affiliation. The "history of recorded music in the United States" DOES NOT show independents "making it big" because the industry has been monopolized for decades by the majors.


 * I suggest you double-check your research regarding this matter. A&M no longer exists after merger with Interscope Records; the other three were notable independents two decades before they were bought up by majors (records from Motown were originally sold from the trunk of Berry Gordy's car a few years before a period in which one-sixth of all singles sold in the US were from that company, for example). The examples I cited should be inspiration for persevering in a climate in which it is difficult to get a toehold, but it does happen: see Death Row Records. B.Wind 02:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Not diatribe! Knowledge comes with being educated on the reasons why this article should stay in Wikipedia. It had to be explained, and there is no abridged way to do so.

Legendheart


 * Delete nn. Independent label with one band (or independent label that is one band?) doesn't make it. Fan1967 23:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * No Delete Legend Heart Records, LLC. is a VERIFIABLE record company. The company is an LLC in the state of Washington. Legendheart
 * Anyone can form an LLC by paying a small amount of money and filing documents with the state. Give it up. --JChap 00:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * True, to a point. There is more to having an LLC, than merely "paying a small fee". Having an LLC also means assuming the responsibility of business ownership. This is NO SMALL task, it is actually a VERY SERIOUS matter. Anyone who is serious about conducting their business, AS A BUSINESS; will form a proper company structure. Legend Heart Records, LLC is a boniafide LLC registered in the state of Washington. It is a GENUINE business, and independent record company. No sense in marginalizing what is a KNOWN PUBLIC FACT.Legendheart


 * Merely being an actual company is not sufficient. Actual, verifable companies are deleted every day. Fan1967 01:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Sufficient to what? Legend Heart Records, LLC. IS an independent record label and a BONAFIDE company registered with the State of Washington; with top rankings in Google for the business in which IT CONDUCTS (MUSIC);. Therefore, Legend Heart Records, LLC. SHOULD be included in Wikipedia's list of independent record labels; because IT IS an independent record label. Legendheart


 * No Delete Sounds like thinly disguised major label sympathizers on here. There have been record companies that started with one artist, since the 50's and 60's. This has no bearing on notability or goals reached. I know many folks, including myself who have followed independent acts, bought their recordings, etc. But when you request them on commercial radio? Forget it. Hey! Certain people are afraid to rub the majors the wrong way, dead wood can't blossom into a flower. Good luck Legend Heart. For what it's worth, not getting on here, is light years from being any kind of big thing lol. Rikrok77


 * Note One and only edit from new user. Fan1967 01:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Note: Apparently new users have no right to express their opinion! Rikrok77


 * Comment You have a perfect right to express an opinion. However, if someone has just registered, that is taken into account. Fan1967 01:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment I see...so...if you are a member who has been on here for awhile, you're telling me that this shouldn't be taken into account? I mean from my experience, members who know each other, and form bonds, groups, cliques, etc., tend to be supportive of each other and their opinions or decisions. And if an opinion differs, there must be something wrong? Hmmm... Rikrok77


 * Rikrok, it's not a group of editors banding together against you. It's about protecting against sockpuppetry due to the unlikeliness of a user stumbling across AfD on their first edit. (Not making any judgements about you.) I am a musician and I sympathize with the plight of small labels. Wikipedia, however, is not a place for advertising or making something notable -- it's for documenting things that have already become notable, and our standard for businesses is WP:CORP, which this unfortunately fails. Sorry, I'm going to have to say delete. Keep up the good fight. ;-) Grand  master  ka  03:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Not Delete  - Just for the record I didn't stumble across Legend Heart Records. I am familiar with Wikipedia, but have not joined until today. I am a lover of independent music, although I am not a musician. I do have friends who are musicians, and they mentioned this article to me. Not that I owe you any explanation. I read the article and it doesn't sound like advertising to me. It sounds like a company description. Sorry, Grand, Fan, or whoever you are...but I just don't believe you. If you are a musician like you say you are, then you are either with a major label or you are a major label sympathizer, and that in itself is very sad. I would suggest looking for sock puppets elsewhere. Maybe even in the mirror (Not making any judgements about you of course).Rikrok77


 * Comment - I know I said I was done with this but the link in the article is grossly misleading. Business Wire describe themselves as the leading source for full-text breaking news releases, multimedia and regulatory filings for companies and groups throughout the world. In other words, this is Legend Heart's own press release, repeated verbatim. The idea that they think they are the only band in the world ever to release their own record is quite the most ridiculous notion I have encountered anywhere on these pages. Ac@osr 07:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete - having a press release doesn't make it notable BigDT 11:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete - not sufficiently notable. Jll 15:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment:  What's really ridiculous in reality, is someone who opens their mouth without knowing what they are talking about or having the intelligence to read something thoroughly before embarrassing themselves. This would constitute being grossly ignorant of the truth. Case and point? The only one saying that Legend Heart --the band-- is the first band to ever release their own record, is Ac@osr!

What is being stated is, that Legend Heart Records, not the band, is the first self-discovered, label-band. As for the two posts following Ac@osr, apparently research is "grossly" absent from these obviously lame "run with the pack" statements. This is becoming a huge waste of time, on something that has proven to be extremely not worth dignifying.

You Can't Argue with Ignorance: It is now very clear, that this forum intends to exclude Legend Heart Records from being included in Wikipedia's list of independent record companies; regardless of what anyone says outside of your ignorant clique. Truth is, Legend Heart Records is working very hard to improve fairness for all true independent record labels; in the music industry. This, by the way, is notable (do yourselves a favor, and look up the word 'notable' in the dictionary). A little research on your part would have uncovered this publicly well-known fact, but then you are not interested in knowing the facts; because your closed minds were already made up from the onset of this discussion. The good work will continue, regardless of people like you. You are insignificant to the notability and success of this independent label, and others like it.

To the people who feign sympathy for the "plight of indie labels." You are offensive and insincere; therefore, dishonorable in character. Legend Heart Records does not depend on the acceptance of people like you. The good work being done is self-evident. The future is bright for independent music. This you can never take away. The fact that Wikipedia depends on donations, speaks for itself. And where the primary donations come from doesn't take much to figure out, or the real reason you have fought so hard to exclude Legend Heart Records from being listed in Wikipedia's list of independent record labels.

You are highly unenlightened and closed minded. Scholars in your own minds. The public will know about this experience, and how we were STONEWALLED and EXCLUDED from Wikipedia's list of independent record labels. Everything comes out in the wash. Have a party stroking each other's sad egos. We will not waste another second of our time, or energy. Legendheart


 * Delete While I like the goal of Legend Heart, I'm not crazy about the P.R. staff...This is an encyclopedia, and as such is for subjects that are already notable, not subjects that "will" be notable or are trying to do something notable. Most importantly, Wikipedia is not a soapbox for promotion of a company, diatribes against the music industry or railing against a perceived "stonewalling".  Honestly, best of luck against Big Music, but this article fails WP:CORP and should be deleted as non-notable. -- Scientizzle 20:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Legendheart, I had made only constructive comments, not a decision, until your personal attacks. Frankly, I was hoping that someone would add to the article enough to establish notabiility of the label, or of the band that appears to be synonymous with it (OBTW, check your history and you'll notice that pop/rock is riddled with acts with their own labels prior to having a contract or even a hit - Elvis Presley recorded and "released" his first single on a vanity label before he signed with Sun Records, for example. The Beatles did something very similar, too). I wish everybody the best of luck, but there's no stonewalling here: we have repeatedly stated what was needed for inclusion and it's become clear that it cannot be provided at this time. That doesn't mean that it cannot be provided when the label becomes more established, however, and despite the rant and diatrible above, I look forward to that occasion. But for now, delete. B.Wind 02:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.