Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Leith Ross (singer)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎ __EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Star  Mississippi  19:13, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Leith Ross (singer)

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

WP:BLP of a musician, not properly referenced as passing WP:NMUSIC. The strongest notability claim here is of the "got X number of streams on Spotify" variety, which is no part of our notability criteria for musicians at all. The "awards" criterion, meanwhile, is looking for top-level national awards that get media coverage for the purposes of establishing the notability of the award, such as a Grammy or a Juno, so the "John Prine Songwriter Fellowship" (sourced to its own self-published content about itself) isn't cutting it -- and the touring criterion is not automatically passed by every single musician who does a tour, but requires the tour itself to be the subject of media coverage (e.g. concert reviews, analysis of the creative significance of the tour, etc.) in GNG-worthy media sources, and just sourcing the existence of a tour to press releases self-published by the artist's record label to announce the tour isn't good enough. But this is referenced almost entirely to bad sources that aren't GNG-building at all -- blogs, PR self-published by Leith Ross's record label, university student media, Q&A interviews where Leith Ross is answering questions in the first person rather than being talked about or analyzed in the third, and on and so forth. Out of 20 footnotes, just one (an album review in Exclaim!) counts as a reliable or GNG-building source at all, but one valid source isn't enough all by itself. Obviously no prejudice against recreation in the future if and when Leith has a stronger notability claim and better sourcing for it than this, but nothing here is "inherently" notable enough to exempt the sourcing from having to be better than this. Bearcat (talk) 21:49, 7 April 2023 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Less Unless (talk) 07:13, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Music and Canada. Bearcat (talk) 21:49, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete regretfully, per WP:MILL and WP:TOOSOON. Firstly, there are reg flags. There is slight notability and coverage, but not a fair amount. If this artist had even won a notable queer performing arts fellowship, such as BOFFO or FIAR, then I would advocate for inclusion. (For fans of this artist, they could apply for next year.) Finally, I must agree with the nom as far as WP:NBAND applies. Bearian (talk) 14:08, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete, appears TOOSOON. At this point, there just isn't enough about the person to craft an article here. Oaktree b (talk) 20:44, 15 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Strong keep: The article needs beefing up and clean up for sure, but at a glance it clearly meets WP:BAND on at least criteria 1 (I see headlining articles from Clash, The Michigan Daily, Exclaim!, ON Magazine, and Yahoo! in the reflist), and since they seem to have toured both nationally in Canada and internationally in the US and Europe, that would meet criteria 4 as well. Again, the article needs a lot of work, but I'd say it absolutely meets the notability requirements to avoid deletion and deserves a chance to be improved. Invisiboy42293 (talk) 21:29, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Additional: I just edited the article to add more RS sources and better reflect their notability. They've been pretty widely covered by notable outlets like Clash, Exclaim!, Canada's National Observer, and Them, (some of it from before they went viral), as well as by notable bloggers like Alan Cross and Eric Alper, are signed to Interscope and Republic Records, and have toured internationally with Lord Huron, Andy Shauf, and Helena Deland. Notability seems pretty secure at this point. Invisiboy42293 (talk) 00:30, 17 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Also just want to state that though the John Prine fellowship is not a Grammy, it is still an immense honor, especially for Ross to be the first ever recipient. Newport Folk Festival is one of the oldest, most iconic festivals and music institutions in America and Prine was folk royalty. His sudden death, especially being from COVID at the beginning of the pandemic, was a tragedy to many legendary songwriters and industry decision-makers. To have Ross, who has only been putting music out since the pandemic started, be chosen as the recipient of the first fellowship in his name, on behalf of Newport, is a major feat! Just wanted to put this out there because I know many fellowships can be simpler in essence to achieve but this one truly demonstrates the faith industry titans have in Ross and their abilities. Elttaruuu (talk) 04:42, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 15:39, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Elttaruuu brings up a good point; the Newport Folk Festival isn't some small local thing, it's been running since 1959 and has hosted historic events like the Electric Dylan controversy and key early performances by Kris Kristofferson and James Taylor, and John Prine is widely regarded as one of the most influential and revered folk singer-songwriters of his generation. It's not the only point of notability here to be sure, but an artist being the first to receive an award of that pedigree before they've even released a full album is no small feat. Invisiboy42293 (talk) 21:06, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Generally awards of the significance we’re talking about merit their own page. This one isn’t even mentioned on the festival page. Innisfree987 (talk) 04:14, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
 * True, which is why I said it's not the only point of notability. For that I would point to substantial coverage in multiple RS sources, touring internationally with notable artists, and being signed to two major labels. Subject pretty solidly fulfills WP:BAND from where I'm sitting, especially for a newer TikTok artist. Invisiboy42293 (talk) 04:46, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I’m still reviewing the overall coverage to make up my mind, but the award is not a point of notability at all. Also touring is not in and of itself important: only the extent to which there is non-trivial coverage of a tour, which the entry doesn’t offer. Label also does not go to wiki notability. Innisfree987 (talk) 04:57, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I do see your point (I'd argue that being signed to Republic and Interscope is a big deal but granted that releasing a few singles on a major is not the same as releasing a full album with one). I think the coverage from National Observer, Clash, and Exclaim! count for a lot (and even the non-notable sources seem to largely be either notable bloggers or sites that at least have an editorial staff), but I recognize that simple album reviews and news of song releases are sometimes considered non-trivial. I'd argue the subject still has a fair amount of notability, and at most I would recommend moving to draftspace rather than deleting, as I suspect they will receive more substantial coverage with their album coming out. Invisiboy42293 (talk) 05:25, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It’s also not on the folk fest page because it happened last year and as iconic and critical as so many events like these are to these festivals they have also become major money makers in the last couple of decades and are focused on devoting everything to upcoming profit. Red Line Roots, a prominent folk magazine, spoke about longtime director and producer of the festival introducing Leith personally to the crowd and getting emotional speaking about Prine’s impact and carrying that on through musicians like Leith Ross. http://www.redlineroots.com/2022/09/newport-2022/ Elttaruuu (talk) 05:03, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Longtime director and producer *Jay Sweet Elttaruuu (talk) 05:03, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It also appears Ross may have opened the festival and their performance and achievement of the fellowship was named in Rolling Stone https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/newport-folk-festival-best-performances-1386848/amp/ Elttaruuu (talk) 05:07, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The extent to which any award makes its winners notable enough for Wikipedia articles by virtue of having won it is always strictly coterminous with the extent to which you can or cannot source their win to media coverage demonstrating that the award would pass WP:GNG in the first place. Awards that cannot be sourced to media coverage are not notable awards, and cannot make their winners notable for winning them. Bearcat (talk) 15:36, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
 * How is Rolling Stone and Red Line Roots not media coverage? Elttaruuu (talk) 17:47, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, for starters, "Red Line Roots" is a WordPress blog, not a real or reliable media outlet, so it counts for absolutely nothing toward establishing the notability of anyone or anything. Secondly, at the time I initiated this discussion (and at the time I added this comment), the only source for the John Prine fellowship was also a blog entry on another unreliable blog that isn't a notability builder either. Rolling Stone is certainly a legitimate and usable source, but it wasn't in the article the last time I looked at it, and thus it's not my job to have known about a source that wasn't in the article yet. But overall, evaluating the sources that are in the article now, the balance of the footnoting is still tilted far too strongly onto bad sources that don't establish notability, like Red Line Roots and the All-Campus Radio Network and YouTube videos and glancing namechecks of Leith Ross's existence in sources that aren't about Leith Ross (e.g. a person isn't notable just because some other person says "I like their music" in an interview that's fundamentally about that other person, so the Allison Ponthier interview in Cosmopolitan is not helping to establish any notability). What's left for reliable source coverage that has Leith Ross as its subject simply doesn't add up to enough. Bearcat (talk) 13:37, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * From Rolling Stone:
 * Leith Ross Carries On John Prine’s Legacy
 * This year’s Newport kicked off in full force with a stunning Friday-morning opening from Leith Ross, the first-ever recipient of the festival’s John Prine Songwriter Fellowship. The Ottawa-raised singer-songwriter’s set of cry-laugh originals honored the late legend’s legacy in more ways than one, as they shared moving songs about family (“Understood”), hard-to-forget flames (“I’d Have to Think About It”), and a song about the melancholy of mortality disguised as an homage to Ross’ grandfather (“Tommy”). “Oh, what a terrible burden/These decisions of mine,” they sang on the latter, just one of many gut-punch lines from a singer who seems poised for a career full of many more of those to come. Elttaruuu (talk) 13:49, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Just FYI, @Elttaruuu, the content matters much less than how much content there is. So instead of quoting a paragraph, it would be much more helpful to show there are many paragraphs in many good-quality sources. Innisfree987 (talk) 14:28, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Clash (multiple articles from), The Michigan Daily, Exclaim!, ON Magazine, Yahoo!, The Canada Observer, Them --- what am I missing here? Elttaruuu (talk) 15:06, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * feels absurd to act as though there aren't thousands of music articles on here with far less notability than this one that still pass notability Elttaruuu (talk) 15:07, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:OSE. Innisfree987 (talk) 15:25, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Michigan Daily has been removed as it’s student media at a school with no connection to Leith. I will continue to look through the others but as Bearcat says and I have pointed out to you previously, it’s really hard to suss out the case for notability when an entry has a large number of sources that are poor-quality or only passing mentions. Innisfree987 (talk) 15:27, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Nearly every article here is entirely focused on the subject at hand, minus the festival articles because these magazines rarely cover individual artist sets when they have so much coverage to do of an event. Elttaruuu (talk) 15:31, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry to say I'm starting to see the arguments against. While it's true the subject has coverage from know reliable outlets, with the exception of maybe the National Observer article, most of them either aren't focused on Ross or are album reviews or short news updates about new singles, which don't usually count for non-trivial coverage since music sites do those for thousands of artists and they don't usually give much info about the artist.
 * I do maintain that I think this article should be moved to draftspace rather than deleted wholesale, as I think the artist is likely to receive more coverage in the near future with an album coming out on a major label. But at least at present, I'm starting to see the arguments against notability. Invisiboy42293 (talk) 20:27, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment, besides winning a fellowship, there still isn't critical discussion of the artist. I'm not seeing notability, likely TOOSOON. Oaktree b (talk) 22:50, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Same here. Like I said, I'm in favor of it being moved to draft, at least temporarily, to see if their debut album's release generates more significant coverage. Invisiboy42293 (talk) 23:40, 22 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Strong keep Ross has had lots of coverage in major publication (indeed I came here because they're featured as the main artist on NME.com). Perhaps there wasn't much coverage once upon a time, but I think it's one of the most obvious keeps I've see Cavie78 (talk) 23:22, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The NME article is actually really helpful, since it's a non-trivial profile and not just routine coverage like an album review or news announcement. In fact, assuming we're also counting this National Observer article as non-trivial coverage (which I personally would, as their picture is at the top and it discusses their music and an album they helped organize in significant detail), that could be enough to satisfy WP:BAND? I think I might be changing my vote to keep. Invisiboy42293 (talk) 02:59, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * There's also this AllMusic bio. Invisiboy42293 (talk) 03:01, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. I would not call this a particularly strong case (, I see this is only the second AfD you’ve participated in since 2010–notability criteria have gotten a lot more stringent since then), but, definitely it’s improved with the NME profile. The sum is good enough for me. Innisfree987 (talk) 06:23, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep, , , , is plenty enough to meet WP:MUSIC bullet 1; with those five sources alone I would have written the article myself. Chubbles (talk) 03:43, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm back at Keep. There's enough coverage at this point.Invisiboy42293 (talk) 15:50, 29 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.